SPFPP 398: Practicing Perfection
Our guest for this episode shares her experience dating with herpes. She shares about how a rejection inspired her to spring into advocacy in her own way, through Storytelling. Lauren’s Instagram is @_Laurentellsstories where you can keep up with her schedule to perform her one woman show starting in Chicago in February and then possibly on the road elsewhere. This episode gives some insight to how you can be “perfect” in every way, yet they not want to be with you because you have herpes, and that’s okay. I always say people gotta like YOU more than they DON’T want herpes.
Episode 398 Transcript:
00:00:00
Courtney Brame:: Hello. Welcome to something positive for positive people. As you can see, uh you are connecting with quarterzip Courtney this fine afternoon. No, I'm just kidding. Uh welcome to something positive for positive people. I'm Courtney Brain. Health Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 nonprofit organization supporting people navigating herpes stigma as well as advocating for better sexual health communication education between patients and healthcare providers among educators to people who are in the process of learning uh as well as the general population just teaching people how to get comfortable with talking about their sexual health needs uh so that we can experience more pleasure. I don't think I ever said that before. Um couple notes. So, this podcast is being recorded right before the big episode 400 drop as we celebrate eight, more accurately 8 and 1/2 years of running the Something Positive for Positive People podcast. If you're in New York City, you're able to make it out to Brooklyn, New York.
00:01:26
Courtney Brame:: Uh just come to the website, you'll see it up. Uh the event is December 12th uh 2025. So, if you listening to this years from now, know that you missed it and you should have been there because, uh, we singing karaoke, we celebrating. And, yeah, I'm gonna bring the podcast to a close. Um, it felt like for a while I was just trying to squeeze that last little bit of toothpaste out of the toothpaste tube. And, yeah, getting to a place now where I've had a very diverse range of conversations recorded for people to have a different blueprint of how other people are navigating herpes stigma has gotten us to this point. And I'm so appreciative of everything that has been done so far. I look I feel really complete in closing out the Something Positive for Positive People podcast at episode 400, especially transitioning into doing more with the support groups, the community, and the um simulations with for health care professionals and everyday people. All right, so with that said, this is my second to last podcast guest.
00:02:26
Courtney Brame:: Um I got Lauren here with me. And Lauren, I'm going to let you introduce yourself, how you want to be introduced, and then just share how we connected and what led you to reach out.
Lauren (Guest): Awesome. I'm so honored to be in one of the final episodes. Uh, my name is Lauren. I am based in Chicago. Super jealous that I can't go to this New York event with karaoke. Um, let's see. I'm originally from the outside of Boston, but I've been in Chicago for the past decade. and I work in the nonprofit world as a project manager, but on the side I do storytelling as a pretty serious passion and hobby. And I'm currently developing a onewoman show which I'll be performing in Chicago in February 2025 and hopefully in many other 2026. I can't believe it's the end of the year. That would be amazing. I'm performing this show in the past.
00:03:17
Courtney Brame:: Yeah, the past.
Lauren (Guest): Yes. 2026. and hopefully it will continue on for a while. And yeah, how we connected. Um, so it's funny, I actually uh DM'd Courtney on Instagram last night and it's crazy that we are talking on this podcast right now, but uh Jolene Hernandez uh who developed the documentary No Shame in This Game um told me about Courtney and I saw you in the documentary as well. And yeah, I was just looking to connect with people in like this like herpes advocacy space as I'm putting together this show. Um, I did come to storytelling because of herpes, but it's become so much more than that, just like um herpes is, I'd say. I I think I've heard in one of your episodes, Courtney, how it's kind of like a mirror for other things going on in your life. Um, but yeah, you you looked confused. I can explain more. So, I was going through like a really bad breakup because of herpes.
00:04:15
Lauren (Guest): Someone rejected me and I decided to start telling stories, but I've never done a 60-minute show before, which is what's happening next year.
Courtney Brame: All right, so couple questions. One, yes, you reached out to me yesterday and we are podcasting today. Let me tell you how things just fell into place because this has been happening for me a lot lately and I think that it speaks to alignment, intentionality, um where I needed to record a podcast like a few days ago actually, but I just with the timing and everything, I just got back from the holidays on Monday and then I immediately had to get into work, the support groups, and I've had the most chaotic work week ever. and I still got to promote the event, right? So, I was like, I need to record a podcast today. I know what the 400th episode is going to be and what it's going to be about. And then boom, I got that message. So, I was like, oh, this can work, but I needed because I have an interview Sunday, so I would have needed like a fill-in episode of some sort.
00:05:21
Courtney Brame: And I didn't have anything to talk about. I was like, the last episode is going to be it. and I didn't want to give that away before it being the 400th. And so you popping up when you did just speaks to how things align in the way that they're supposed to. So I I just wanted to share that with you here because I guess that means that here you are being in alignment for yourself as you make the transition into this one minute show or one woman show. This onewoman show for 60 minutes at that.
Lauren (Guest): Yeah, it was meant to be. It was crazy when I first messaged you and I already saw you typing. I was like, "Oh my god, something's happening."
Courtney Brame: I when I don't have my phone on do not disturb if I do not respond to you right away, I might miss it and just lose it. So, I'm not the kind of person like I might open it and then I got to unread it so that when I do get back to it, I can get back to it.
00:06:16
Courtney Brame: But yeah, I I'm glad that you were able to make yourself available. And I know I know that you were kind of going back and forth on whether or not to do the podcast today. Uh what was that for you? Like did you just have a lot of stuff going on or were you up in the air about wanting to share your story?
Lauren (Guest): Yeah, so today has been a really big day for me because I posted on social media for the first time that I have herpes. So it's like this will be a core memory like December 5th, 2025 will be a big memory in my life, I'd say. Um, but I just so happened to have a rehearsal tomorrow um via Zoom with some an awesome performer I met when I was in Rochester, New York. Um, so I had to put my script together. Um, so that's what I've been doing all day today and I was just worried about being able to get as much progress as I wanted done, but thankfully I had a really productive day.
00:07:09
Lauren (Guest): So yeah, all good for today.
Courtney Brame: Yeah. Okay. Hey, well, I was wondering if maybe you were nervous cuz I was sure like, ah, you know, I don't want to put you in this in this, you know, window. Cuz what happens for me is that a lot of people when they get excited to the point where they want to share their story or their experience with the world, when the dopamine dies down, time passes, they want to get a regular corporate job or something, they they ask me to take the podcast down or they want to just they regret having done it or something. I don't know what it is, but um I don't know, something about this just seemed aligned. It felt like, you know, the way that you approached it was like with some kind of intentionality. So, I want to speak to that. Like, what made you want to share? What made you want to make this uh a show or or just put your story out there in general?
00:08:03
Lauren (Guest): Yeah, such a good question. And I in some ways I had a light bulb moment and in other ways it was a slow gradual process. But back to that rejection I was talking about that was in 2021 and that was the moment when I hit rock bottom. I thought this was like a recent rejection that maybe you were like oh this Oh no. So thankfully I'm not in that head space where I'm like screw this. I was definitely in that for a while. Um yeah, so in 2021 I was um I had been on like five dates with this amazing guy who I thought was really perfect and he really liked me and I had disclosed to him though I didn't do it like in the best practice way. You're not really supposed to do it like when you're hooking up, but I did it in the very last second because I was terrified. And he said he needed time to think about it, which was totally fair.
00:09:00
Lauren (Guest): But then 2 seconds later, he said, "It's actually fine. Like, I just really want to hook up with you." So, we did. And I was like celebrating in my head. And on the next date, like a few days later, he completely pulled the rug from underneath me and said, his words were like, "Len, you're honestly perfect, but being intimate with my partner matters too much for me, so I can't be with you." And that crushed me on a lot of levels because it's like, you can't be intimate with me, but like I'm being intimate in sharing my big secret with you. Also, I was trying so hard to be perfect for him because I thought if I could just be perfect, someone will accept me. And he literally said I was perfect and it still wasn't enough. And for the longest time, it made me feel really hopeless, like there's nothing I can do. I'm just going to die alone. Like that's that.
00:09:50
Lauren (Guest): And so anyway, um maybe a month after that, I was like, I actually can't handle all these emotions that I'm feeling. Like I'm grieving um so much. I'm grieving what I thought would be with this guy. I'm also grieving just like any like shot at like a beautiful love story that like I always thought I would have. So, it took me hitting rock bottom for me to actually just Google like storytelling workshop Chicago. And then I told like a 10-minute story. So, that was 2021. That was the beginning of my storytelling career. And I've been telling stories ever since. And I saw a lot of people in the storytelling community making these like one person shows that were much longer like 1 hour shows and they were more like plays and I thought I have so much to say about my herpes dating experience and like I'm always trying to do too much. So I was like I want to do that.
00:10:44
Lauren (Guest): Um so yeah I decided to do this like a year ago.
Courtney Brame: All right. So uh I want to come back to that. However, for now I want to talk about this um perfection. this you're perfect except for this and then you mentioned that you were trying to be perfect. Was there any authenticity in your presentation to this?
Lauren (Guest): Yeah, I think I've become really used to trying to be perfect even before I got herpes unfortunately. It's just like what society pressures us to do. Um, I played a lot of sports growing up, so I feel like it was just reinforced in my brain like you can always be better. Outcomes are within your control. So, I applied that mindset to dating. And I was like, well, let me just keep muscling through this. Like, if I can just be like an 11 out of 10 for someone, it'll be fine. So, I don't think I did anything like out of alignment, per se, but I was not fully present on these dates.
00:11:44
Lauren (Guest): Like I was trying really hard to seem knowledgeable in all these topics. Like I also Google Did you Google some of the things that he shared he's interested in? Like Google some of the anime he watches or probably sports teams and you're like oh yeah, you know I watch this show. I've seen a few episodes of this. Totally. Yeah. I I remember like a really common question on dates was like what's something that you're like a nerd about? And I was like, honestly, I I don't really nerd out about a lot of things, which is actually really uncool these days. Like, it's cool to be like really steeped into something. And I'm like, I'm actually just I'm not really like that. Like, I don't go deep into like this historical time of like life or something or like into science or anime for for example. So, I felt like I was pretending to have these like deep passions in something, which is ironic because I ended up getting a deep passion in storytelling, but yeah, I felt this need to like make some archetype of who I was, I guess.
00:12:46
Courtney Brame:: Yeah. So, your herpes diagnosis having led you to your passion and you've been doing this for four years now. So, you just stumbled into storytelling and is is it a career or is it a how do we differentiate? Is this your career? Is this your passion? Is it a hobby? Help me like understand what it is for you right now?
Lauren (Guest): I'd call it a passion. I think it'll always be a passion. I would love for it to be my career, but it's really hard to make money through storytelling. Um, I do have like big aspirations though after the show. Like I want to have a YouTube channel and stuff like that. But I'm trying to be like laser focused on the February show. making sure I get the story right instead of like thinking about all these like business ideas. So for now it's a passion but would love for it to be my career.
00:13:34
Courtney Brame: All right. I just wanted to speak on it properly without saying the wrong things. So you stumbled into your passion through this and it was just your personal experience. So, it was that rejection that served as the catalyst for you after a month to have hit rock bottom and be like, you know what, this is what I'm doing. I'm going to tell my story. And I'm wondering like did you already know the power of storytelling or was it something that you learned as you started to tell your story?
Lauren (Guest): Yeah, I think a little bit of both. I had known about the Moth podcast, so I listened to stories a lot. never considered doing it myself. And yeah, but it wasn't until actually like saying the word herpes out loud at my first storytelling workshop and I realized like the world didn't end when I said the word. Um, and just seeing these like warm faces looking at me like the storytelling community is like they're the kindest people you'll ever meet.
00:14:31
Lauren (Guest): Um, so yeah, I think just saying the word more out loud was really powerful for me and and helping me accept my situation. And also writing is so helpful for processing emotions. Um, yeah. So I every time I'm writing a story, I'm basically like doing therapy to myself. Like I have all these revelations. Um, I remember that first story I told, I by the time that I finished writing it, I developed so much empathy for the person who gave me herpes. Weirdly enough, I think I went into the story pretty like angry. And I by the time I finished writing it, I was like, we're kind of living these like parallel lives. Like I don't really know where he is right now, but I he ended up ghosting me when I texted him that I got herpes. Um, and I that obviously left a really sour taste in my mouth, but by writing this story, it made me realize like he's probably dealing with a stigma, too.
00:15:34
Lauren (Guest): Like the stigma is meant to scare us. And it it was that fear that probably led him to ghost me. Um, so yeah, I just I felt this connection with him actually, weirdly enough, even though I haven't really talked to him since.
Courtney Brame: That reminds me of uh that Alana Morisette video, Hands Clean, where like you kind of see what's happening with her and you kind of see like the progression of him. I recently learned what that song is about and I was like, "Oh, I can't unhear the song lyrics now." But I was just thinking about like the where she is in life, where he is in life. And I I don't know who gave me herpes. Um, like I don't even have like a speculation of it because all of my partners that I asked at the time or the people that I had been with all told me no, they don't have it. So yeah, somebody could be lying, but you know, I trust that people are giving me the information that they have.
00:16:25
Courtney Brame: And as I've moved forward through this, I found that it was easier for me not knowing where I got it from because I didn't have anybody to blame or to create more resistance to me going through the healing process. I wonder what that was like for you. Like you had this person, you know, that he ghosted you. Uh what was the process of moving through that like for you?
Lauren (Guest): It was a really big letdown because I had a big crush on this person. I hadn't talked to him much. It was more like a crush from afar. He was like the grade above me, I think. So I had this like really high high of like, wow, I got to hook up with my crush. Like that doesn't always happen. That's cool. Um, and then to finding out that I got herpes and I didn't even know anything about herpes. I didn't know anyone who had it.
00:17:11
Lauren (Guest): So, yeah. Um, but I actually forgot the question. Was it how was I was I angry at him or something?
Courtney Brame: Yeah. Just really like what was it like for you going through the healing process knowing who gave it to you? Because a lot of us have an idea, but some of us don't know. And so I'm wondering what uh without you you know giving away too much of your own personal experience that you be telling like I want to know specifically about this like when you reached out told him and he ghosted you. What happened after that? Because you mentioned the 2021 rejection was so hard for you but what was it about this person giving you herpes? Like what did you experience with that?
Lauren (Guest): Yeah, I honestly didn't resent him a ton because I I knew enough at that time to know that it's really random getting herpes and like most people who have it don't even know they have it.
00:18:03
Lauren (Guest): So, I did not blame him at all in the text that I sent him. I I pretty much assumed that he had a cold sore and like didn't even realize that was herpes. So, I didn't have a lot of blame um going his direction. But the reason why I hit rock bottom so many years later, cuz um when I got herpes, it was probably like uh 2014. I was in a long-term relationship in between those two moments where I completely detached from herpes as like part of my identity. I was dating uh this person for 6 years. He didn't care that I had it. It was a super like safe relationship. Like I I just felt so accepted and like it didn't matter. I never had to think about it. And I was like, maybe I'll never even have to think about herpes ever again in my life. So, it was only um after we ended that relationship and by that time I was in my late 20s, it was almost like I got herpes in my late 20s cuz that was like the first time I really had a reckon with it and I was like relearning everything.
00:19:02
Lauren (Guest): Like that's really when I was doing my like googling about herpes even though I got it so many years prior. That makes sense. So you it was you coming out of the relationship. Um I I hear that often, right? you get into a relationship after your diagnosis and it's like, "Oh, yeah. This person accepts me." And then later down the road, for whatever reasons, the relationship doesn't work out and now you have to you you have to deal with it. It's like, "Oh, wait a minute. I got to start telling people this again." And then that's when we go down that that spiral, that rabbit hole. What was it like for you getting back into the dating world after such a long relationship now with this herpes diagnosis? It was very hard. I had a mix of emotions. Part of me felt really excited to go back out into the dating world. I I grew up watching Sex in the City because my mom would always watch it and I was like, "Oh, that's what my life is going to be like." And I right when I got out of that long relationship,
00:19:58
Lauren (Guest): I was like, "I can finally like live out my Sex in the City dream." And then in the back of my mind, there was like this whisper like, "Well, you have herpes. Like, can you even still do that?" So to be really honest, I didn't disclose with a few guys at first. I I rationalized it very hard. I'm I'm a overthinker. So I did a lot of research on herpes and I also talked to like my doctor friends. And I also saw that the stigma was like so alive. Um and I thought to myself, I'm taking all these precautions. I'm taking uh daily antivirals. I'm using condoms. I'm making sure I don't have an outbreak before I hook up with someone. And I know a lot of people out there don't even know that they have it and are disclosing. So, I actually feel like a safer bet. I don't believe this now, by the way, but like this is what I was telling myself.
00:20:48
Lauren (Guest): Like, you you tell yourself a story that you want to hear. And I could not fathom like having to tell people about this during my time when I was trying to live out my Sex in the City dream. So, yeah, I had a few hookups where I did not tell the guys. Um thankfully I don't to my knowledge I didn't give it to anyone but um I did have a couple scares actually. So because like when you hook up with someone new often times you can get an outbreak because it's like new bacteria in your body. So I remember like the day after one of my hook you Hey, hold on real quick. You better tell these dudes rinse their mouth out, wash their hands, and and keep Yeah, just just do some do some hygiene stuff. Yeah, for sure. Um, but I yeah, I remember the day after one of my hookups, I got an outbreak and I was like, "Oh s***, there's a chance that I gave it to this guy and I haven't even told him that I have herpes."
00:21:47
Lauren (Guest): And I spiraled so hard. I remember googling like, "How long does it take to transmit herpes to someone?" And it's usually within 14 days that it would show up. So, I was like counting down the days until that window would be over. Like, I am so terrified. I didn't even make it the 14 days. I just told him. Um, and yeah, I actually had two experiences like this. One of them, the guy was super chill about it and he was like, "Well, do you have an outbreak right now?" But by the time we had this conversation, I didn't. And he was like, "Well, then it's okay. Like, herpes is really common." And I was like, "Wow, what a relief." Another guy, cuz I guess you need many times to learn from your mistakes. Um uh he was not as chill about it and he was really nice actually, but um he ended up ending things with me because we were looking for different things, but I imagine that either herpes or me not telling him about herpes contributed to that.
00:22:46
Lauren (Guest): So it was a terrible feeling. I felt really bad. Like I always thought like I was a good person. It's like I'm not being a good person right now. But like it's really it just felt like a moral gray area to me with the stigma and I was like people with cold sores aren't disclosing before they kiss someone. Why do I have to do this? And that was like a major thing that I learned through all this is that fairness is not the same thing as morality. Like just because it's not fair that I have to disclose and people with cold sores aren't doesn't mean that I shouldn't be doing it. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think that that's it's vulnerable to tell someone you have herpes and then it's vulnerable to tell someone or complete strangers like hey I've not gone about this in the most ethical way. Uh so I very much appreciate that and I wonder too uh there was a question in my head to ask you about that.
00:23:39
Courtney Brame: Um you you mentioned we need multiple times to learn uh our mistakes and it was around then that I wanted to ask you do you feel like it was harder for you well I guess maybe not like I'm about to answer my own question but was it harder for you to receive the oh it's okay you know everybody has it like that's a person that you didn't tell and do you feel bad because hey there's this great guy that had this positive response. Damn, I probably could have told him before and it would have been fine versus telling the other person and then him not being okay with it uh later on after the fact. Like what what were some of the things that went through your head with those two different responses?
Lauren (Guest): Yeah, I definitely felt that way about the first one I was I was so relieved and thankful. Um, the second one he said, "I wish you had told me before." And in my mind, I'm as I'm asking myself, is that because you wouldn't have slept with me or because you want to have this like foundation of honesty?
00:24:47
Lauren (Guest): Because if it's the former, then like I kind of stand by not telling you. That that was my former voice saying that. Yeah. Yeah. But um I Yeah, I really like struggle with that. People are like, "Well, you should tell the person." But it's it's like is that because you're going to reject me or just cuz you want to know? Um yeah, still Okay.
Courtney Brame: Are you concerned about people from your past finding out and then if these were people that you didn't tell and um then you are on this podcast or you do your show and they pop up and they're like, "You didn't tell me."
Lauren (Guest): Um a little bit. Mhm. Um, yeah, most I mean it's it was only a handful of people who I didn't tell and they were like random Hinge people, so I don't think I'll ever see them again and it was like we slept together like a couple times. Um, so yeah, I honestly don't feel that worried just given that like so many people have herpes and a lot of people don't disclose.
00:25:54
Lauren (Guest): So it's I and I don't think I gave it to them or else it would have come up when we were together. So yeah, I think I feel okay. We'll see how I feel tomorrow.
Courtney Brame: Yeah. And I know um you had mentioned like people with cold sores or HSV orally not sharing this with people before they kiss. And there's so much to that. Like I I still believe that herpes should not be considered a sexually transmitted infection because it's transmitted sensually. You can get it without having intercourse. You can get it without um even if you wear a condom, right? So it's a skin-to-skin contact virus that can transmit to other parts of the body as well. And I I kind of stand by that that the way that we look at herpes isn't even about herpes itself. It's about our relationship to sex, the way that society views sex. Um, herpes has the stigma as a secondhand impact of that.
00:26:56
Courtney Brame: And I that's something that I stand by.
Lauren (Guest): Yeah, that's super interesting. Yeah, I think people are like it also just has to do with risk in general. And I feel like this came up during COVID when we realized how interconnected we are. And it's like anytime you step out of your house, you're at risk of something. Anytime you get into a car, you're at risk of dying. Like when you drink alcohol, stuff like that. So, I was just really shocked by how scared people were about herpes given all the other risks that people take in life. Yeah. Yeah, cuz so much of it is about who's worth the risk, right? Think about how many people you did or didn't wear a mask around, which places you go to where you would or wouldn't wear a mask, right? Like unconsciously, there's these things that we're doing uh on a consistent basis where we're assessing, okay, I have these rules, I have these boundaries, I have these things in place, but for the right person, blank.
00:27:54
Courtney Brame: like all this shit goes out the window for the right person, people, however we want to see it. And that's one of the things that I noticed for um many of the people that I talk to who now have herpes is that that shit goes out the window and people are like, "Oh, I should I knew I shouldn't have had sex with this person or uh my intuition told me and I didn't listen to it." And that's something that I regularly try and get people to see and reconnect with. uh is that inner voice that maybe got shushed and then boom, we get this herpes diagnosis. So, we get herpes and now it's I should have listened to my intuition and now we've got this thing that serves as a more tangible co-pilot for our intuition because it guides us to if we're having outbreaks like if we're super stressed, if we're not taking care of ourselves, right? And that's one of the ways that we can view uh living with herpes. Now, a question I wanted to ask you is uh what where are you from?
00:28:53
Courtney Brame: Um I'm curious about like your cultural background and upbringing in regards to sex.
Lauren (Guest): Oh, yeah. So, I'm from outside of Boston, but ethnically I'm half Chinese and then a quarter Lebanese and like European, but um I only have one grandparent, not from the US, so I'm pretty American. Um, but yeah, in terms of sex, like culturally, I didn't talk a lot about sex growing up. I'd say I was definitely a late bloomer. So, I always thought it was ironic that I got herpes out of everyone. Like, I didn't think I was like the most promiscuous person ever. Um, but that just shows how random it is. But yeah, I just don't really remember talking about sex a lot growing up. I I didn't I'm not religious, so I have no shame around sex really. And I really don't have any I've never had shame around herpes. It's actually something that's come up a lot in my storytelling journey. When I've told people I'm telling a story about herpes, they're like, Lauren, that's so brave.
00:29:56
Lauren (Guest): You're telling a story about shame. I'm like, wait a second. I've never been ashamed. Um I You want to raise your hand.
Courtney Brame: Alright. I have to I if I don't challenge you on this, I'm not a good podcaster. Do it. Do it. Challenge me. If you don't have shame, what kept you from telling people that you didn't have that you have herpes?
Lauren (Guest): So, I think shame is different from embarrassment. I actually I defined the word shame. I looked it up and it's you feel bad about something you did. It's tied to your actions. And I have no regrets about having that one night stand in college. I'm really proud of myself for going up to my crush. I am embarrassed to have her be where I was because of the stigma that society puts on it, but I think it's random and unlucky that I got it and that anyone else has it.
00:30:47
Courtney Brame:: All right. I just had to ask it. Okay.
Lauren (Guest): No, totally.
Courtney Brame: I hear and I resonate because for me when I got diagnosed I was relieved after I called the most recent partners that I had and heard that they didn't have herpes because I would have been embarrassed to have known as the guy that's going around giving people herpes. That was where embarrassment was and it landed for me. So it it's interesting to hear somebody else say that because everyone else that many of the people that I speak to talk about the shame piece. It's like I didn't I didn't do anything wrong. Like what what is there to be ashamed of unless you're in a religious sense you did something wrong in relation to God or you did something wrong in relation to your upbringing of how sex was talked about and it's like you weren't supposed to do this thing that you did so yes feel bad about the thing that you did shame but for me it's just like embarrassing to give it to someone you know whether I know or not right like that would have been the embarrassing thing for me totally Yeah.
00:31:50
Lauren (Guest): And for me, it was just embarrassing talking about sex in general. Like I didn't want to have to bring up herpes on a third date um or like in any other setting. Like I just don't want to be talking about sex like that. Um I think there's something to like early dating that's really mysterious and fun and you don't even know where it's going to lead, but you both kind of know where it's going to lead. And I just felt like herpes took that out of the equation. So, that's something else that I mourned. I was like, I don't want to be so like blatant like at the end of our second date, by the way, I'm not sure if we're gonna have sex, but in case we do, let me just give you this quick sex ed talk. Like, no, I want to be like mysterious and fun. So, that was something that was hard for me.
Courtney Brame: So, have you never seen discussing your herpes status as something fun with partners?
00:32:43
Lauren (Guest): Um, I wouldn't say it's ever been fun for me. It definitely got easier. Has it been fun for you?
Courtney Brame: Yes. And I think part of it is having um gone and listened to Well, I'm in sex education, so uh it's very normal to talk about sex and sexual health because it's interconnected with pleasure. the safer I feel with you, the more I can let loose, the more you should feel safe and the more free we are to be able to be with each other. Because if you are going into it like in your heteronormative start to finish, go on a great day. Hey, want to come back to my place? We don't talk about sex. It just kind of happens or it's assumed and maybe I wear a condom. Maybe I ask you if I need a condom and then we perform the sex the way that it's scripted. Or it's a all right so I'm seeing this you know leaning towards me wanting to continue to earn a night together.
00:33:43
Courtney Brame:: Would you want to come back to my place? Yes, I would love that. All right. Before we do that, uh so sexual health is important to me. This is how often I'm tested. I was last tested for these things. I test positive for herpes. What about you? And then boom, we had that conversation. or even if it's more like under uh underneath that. Uh I remember one time I was out and I met someone out that night at like a skating rink or something and I just introduced myself. Hi, I'm Courtney. And we ended up talking for a while and I was interested in hooking up and so I was like, "Yeah, so what's up?" And she was like, "You don't want to sleep with me. I have herpes." And this is the first time this has ever happened to me where someone tells me that they have it first and this is like out in the wild.
00:34:31
Courtney Brame: So I trolled her. I was like, "Doesn't everybody have herpes?" Like she had no idea what I did. I was just like, "It is what it is." And I made that fun. It was just something interesting about that space between me or her like having told me this very vulnerable thing that I know is a vulnerable thing. I know like the emotional tornadoes that are happening in a person's head about how the other person is receiving it. And for me to have been in that place, it was just fun. So I eventually told her, she was like, "You asshole why did you tell me earlier?" But in playful way. Um, but yeah, it's it's fun because it's also wrapped up in here are the things that, you know, I see I want to do with you or I see us doing together, right? And you can speak to those things and let it be uh woven in with the safety stuff as you talk about what turns you on, as you talk about your boundaries, how you like to be communicated with during sex or how you like to be touched during sex, how you don't like to be touched, right?
00:35:36
Courtney Brame: These are the things that take away that there's often misfires in the first time that you maybe have sex with someone. And I think that it can make for a super healthy, playful, fun, and secure hookup. Yeah. No, I can totally see that. And I think I did I got much better at disclosing by the end of it. All right. I got I gotta I gotta say this. So, we don't use the word disclosing here. We use the word discussing, right? Discussing. Yeah. Because Okay. One, we're not signing legal documents, right? On the other hand, it's disclosing is I have something to tell you. Discussing is we're engaging in a conversation. So, it's not I have to tell you I have herpes. It's we need to talk about our sexual health, right? So, it's not a confession, it's a conversation. It's not a disclosure, it's a discussion.
00:36:28
Courtney Brame: So, I ain't mean to cut you off. I just I know.
Lauren (Guest): I love that shift. Um, yeah. I feel like I shifted to discussions once I was like more comfortable with talking about herpes and sex in general, but I was still using the word disclosure as of two seconds ago. So, thank you. Um, but yeah, so I'm in a relationship now. Um, but and I feel like back when I was uh discussing this, I actually I lost my train of thought, but something I was going to say earlier is that I feel like there's a gender thing that's in my mind. It's not necessarily right. It's just gender norms, which is that women are usually like the submissive one. We're not the one to be like super direct. We're the ones to be like sought after. And that doesn't really align with like initiating a conversation about sex. And it's something I'm pretty torn about because um being someone obsessed with sex in the city, especially the Samantha character, she goes after what she wants.
00:37:30
Lauren (Guest): And I feel like if she had herpes, she probably did have herpes. Um that she would um totally just like bring up these conversations. And I feel like her character is something I wanted to embody for a long time. just like this empowered, confident woman. And it's just the discomfort that comes with like shifting into like a new personality, I guess. So, I really I love the idea of making it a fun conversation, bringing it up like before it needs to happen, but there is some sort of like mysterious part that I still grieve. Um, if I'm being honest. Yeah. Um, there's two questions I have. I know the first one is really in relation to um your partner, your relationship that you're in now and what his thoughts are or their thoughts are on you um being open about your herpes status.
Courtney Brame: I want to come back to that. Uh the other thing was Sex in City. Ah, it was good.
00:38:36
Courtney Brame: It was such a good question. Let's start there and see if it comes back.
Lauren (Guest): Was it about like being direct in gender norms making the first week?
Courtney Brame: Thank you. Yeah. So, it sucks because on one hand that's the case, but men, we are not given the tools that we need, especially men who date women to talk about sex and sexual health. When you go even into sexual health uh related content, it's all geared towards gay men because it's HIV prevention. How often do we hear like even when we look at sex toys, sex toys are marketed to women. what's the male equivalent of sex toys or pleasure products, right? There's no there's nothing that ties to our pleasure that uh is so outright and we're not marketed to in how to communicate about this. So, the burden of the conversation even being had does in fact go on to women. And then you got the idea of uh if you're bringing it up then like oh you must not be a pure or good or woman or you're promiscuous because you're initiating these conversations or it can even look emasculating.
00:39:47
Courtney Brame: But a lot of us just don't know to initiate the conversation nor do we know how. And because of a lot of assumptions and media that speaks to men the way that it does in regards to sex and what we learn from porn is to perform. there's not much that's like, hey, here's how to be vulnerable. Here's what intimacy is. Um, so that that that was just something that I wanted to speak to.
Lauren (Guest): Yeah, you're absolutely right about that in that, you know, if the conversation is being had a lot of the times um with the people that I talked to, no one brought up sexual health. Like by the time people get herpes and talking to me, no one brought up sexual health or they just ask something like, "Are you clean?"
Courtney Brame: And I'm guilty of just asking, "Do I need this condom?" Meaning, I'm concerned about uh pregnancy more so than SCI. That was me in like high school, college. But yeah, now it's more of a conversation.
00:40:45
Courtney Brame: It's a little bit of all of those things that I mentioned earlier, including like our intentions for the relationship. And that's so much more fun now. And I can stop that there.
Lauren (Guest): No, I love that. Um, yeah. I feel like Hinge and like every app should just have like a popup, like a little formational thing that's like, "Here's some tips for safe sex." Like that couldn't hurt cuz there's no one knows anything. Um, I didn't have like not one guy ever asked me about my sexual health during my whole like dating time. Yet, the moment I mentioned herpes, like suddenly their body was a temple and they're like, "Oh no, like I can't have that. I don't even know what that is, but I definitely can't have that. And I'm like, you didn't even want to use a condom before. Like, and suddenly you you care so much. So, I know it all comes from this place of like just poor sex education and like the stigma, but super frustrating in the moment.
00:41:42
Courtney Brame: Absolutely. So, we can close this out with you just sharing um I guess what what was the process or conversation like between you and your current partner about you now being open about having herpes? Like, was this a discussion? Were they supportive? How'd that go?
Lauren (Guest): It went great. I actually So, we started dating in January and I had on my Pinch profile that I wanted to make this one woman show. I didn't say that I was about herpes on the profile, but um yeah, by the second date I told him and he was very chill about it. He did say he um like wanted to do his research, but then on the next date he said it was totally fine. Um but yeah, he's been really supportive of my storytelling um passion and yeah, he just he's a an amazing guy. Doesn't have like a huge ego. So, I I've definitely dated people in the past where herpes aside, they just didn't really want me telling stories about other guys, even though it was in the past.
00:42:42
Lauren (Guest): And so many of my stories are about dating cuz there just so much goes on with dating.
Courtney Brame: I was about to ask you. I was going to say like you sound like you've done a lot of dating with herpes and I'm very curious to know about your experience because it seems like you have a lot of experience and I know that um a lot of women do not see life after herpes in reference to dating and here you are like literally living it and doing it and being it.
Lauren (Guest): Totally. Yeah. Um, I've had so many different experiences with this. I There's like a couple things. One is like the more confident you get with disclosing like the better it is. Oh, I'm sorry. I said the bad word uh with discussing your sexual health. Um, but way easier said than done. And I would just say to those people like have grace with yourself because I had so many of those discussions where I was like hyperventilating with like herpes statistics and like probably scaring the guy more than I had to.
00:43:45
Lauren (Guest): And like it's okay if you do that the first couple of times. Like cut yourself some slack. For a while I would actually blame myself like I'm the reason I'm getting rejected is because I can't deliver this information in a chill way. But then I would uh share it in a chill way to other guys and they still would reject me. So, I think there's something to be said for like someone is going to be open-minded or not and you actually don't play a major role in it, which can be really liberating.
Courtney Brame: Yeah, absolutely. And you take accountability for your role in the things and then you don't take accountability for the things that are not yours to take accountability and responsibility for. So, that that that hits.
Courtney Brame: Um, if you happen to have any like hinge conversations or examples that you would like to share in maybe a support group or something in the future, uh, I would love to invite you to that. Not to put you on the spot or anything, but I think that that can be very useful for the ladies who were like, I can never see myself dating after this for someone to come in and be like, actually, you can and this is how it looks.
00:44:52
Lauren (Guest): So, I have a lot of examples. All right. Cool. Because, you know, you got to screenshot to the to the girls and like get their thoughts.
Courtney: So, screenshots?
Lauren (Guest):Yes.
Courtney: Just block out faces. That's all I need.
Lauren (Guest):Yes.
Courtney: Um, okay. So, this is all I got for us. Um, I think that this actually flew by. Um, please let people know how they can find you, how they can connect with you. Uh, and yeah, just learn more about upcoming shows in the event that this is something that you do later down the road virtually or if you take this show on the road, um, that people can stay connected with you and learn more about it.
Lauren (Guest):Yeah. Um, Instagram is the best way to stay connected. So, I'm @_Laurentellsstories and yeah, I hope to have many more shows beyond the February ones. Um, I tell lots of other stories too beyond herpes.
00:45:48
Lauren (Guest): But yeah, if anyone is ever interested in storytelling or just want someone to talk to about dating with herpes, like feel free to slide into my DMs. Like, I want to be helpful. Um, I was in a really dark place for a while and I really wish I had I wish I wish I had found your page, Courtney. Um, so really happy to support anyone who needs it.
Courtney Brame: Thank you so much, Lauren. All right, that's @_Laurentellsstories and that concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like, rate, review, share, subscribe to the P-Oh, I don't feel right saying that no more. This is this is a third to last episode and I don't know like I I want to just name that perhaps a season two comes and something's different but 400 episodes of talking about herpes and trying to shift and not shifting and saying this is the end and then not uh I I do feel at most peace with completing the podcast here at episode 400 and letting what's out there be out there and if people want to connect with me, talk to me, work with me. Um, there's a place for that. Just visit spfpp.org and then we can figure things out. I am still taking survey responses. So, spfpp.org/herpes-servey so we can get the most accurate, up-to-date statistics for people to be able to share with partners, providers, and for providers to be able to share with patients. Um, yeah, I'm in a real good place and I feel good about this coming to a close now. All right, y'all. Till next time, stay present.
