SPFPP 408: Safe Sex is Communicative Sex - with Tamar Weir

Shoutout to Tamar for coming back on the show to speak on her experience with ureaplasma and how to communicate STI exposure to partners. While that conversation can potentially be re-activating for someone with negative experience discussing their herpes status with partners in the past, we learn how smooth it can be for us.

Episode 408 Transcript

Intro and Navigating a Ureaplasma Exposure

00:00:00 Tamar Weir: I think it's recording.

Courtney Brame: Hold on. I'll stop it. All right.

00:01:04 Courtney Brame: All right, welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization supporting people who are navigating herpes stigma. In addition to that, we also teach people how to communicate about their sexual health. This episode is going to highlight that in more of a hands-on, personal experience-based process. I got a guest on here, Tamar Weir, who manages the Instagram account, Pomegranate Pleasure. Is that right?

Tamar Weir: It is right. Hi!

Courtney Brame: I don't really have announcements, so we can really just go into the recording. I talked about this on a previous episode. I just didn't say who or give any details outside of that, but I did an episode speaking about a possible exposure to Ureaplasma. I really highlighted the communication and thought about how grateful I was to have someone who said, "All right, I was exposed to this. Let me tell all of my partners, 'Hey, this is a thing here. Be mindful of it. Here's the information.'"

00:02:17 Courtney Brame: The way that you presented it wasn't something that was overly positive or overly fearful. It was just a very neutral presentation of the information and what the suggested next steps were. So that was kind of what I talked about in the podcast—how it was for me receiving that information. I'll talk about Ureaplasma, what it is and all of that, but for starters, let's open up with the communication and your experience, since the audience knows mine if they listened to that episode.

Tamar Weir: Yeah. The communication is definitely part of my passion in this sexual health and sensuality work. I talk about it a lot. I think it's generally a topic that a lot of people are talking about.

00:03:26 Tamar Weir: Whether or not people are actually doing it, I don't know. It's like a separate podcast perhaps. But for me personally, whenever I'm exploring something new within my own experience, there's always a certain level of anxiety or just newness to a situation that I like to look at as an opportunity to practice something. From our past podcasts and folks who know me, communication around sexual desires and STI status and all that good stuff is not something that is new or unfamiliar for me, but Ureaplasma was.

That is where the two things came together. I may be more familiar with having these hard conversations than other people, but it was an opportunity to do it in a different or new way because Ureaplasma was something that was not very familiar to me. That's kind of the background headspace I was in—curious, confused, and also just seeing it as an opportunity to keep exploring this, whether it's through my work or my own personal experience with my body and my partners.

00:04:52 Courtney Brame: Out of curiosity, was this something that—because you wrote about it and I read the blog, very well written, thank you for sharing—was this activating for you, coming from your herpes experience and now sharing about another STI?

Tamar Weir: Actually, it wasn't as much as I thought it would or could be. The main reason why it didn't resurface some old feelings was because when I got herpes, I was very young and there was a lot of fear, misinformation, and stigma that still exists now. I was 18, very young. So I think when I had herpes, I was just flooded with a lot of fear because of the heavy stigma that was around me. Now, almost 10 years later, there is still so much stigma, but I feel a lot more sure of myself.

00:06:10 Tamar Weir: I feel like that stigma doesn't penetrate me as easily as it did before, where it was full-on chaos. Also, I think it didn't resurface any old feelings because of what I'm studying and focusing on now, and because I think Ureaplasma is still a very confusing bacteria. When there is confusion about things, I think sometimes the stigma is a little different. Of course, I see people in my life very confused by herpes, but I think it's a little different than Ureaplasma. We can get into the specifics of the differences, but I'm curious about you. Did it resurface anything or prompt any old thoughts and feelings you had, or was it completely new?

Courtney Brame: Ureaplasma was a very similar experience because I didn't know anything about it, right? I think what was familiar for me, more than anything, was having to navigate the conversation with other partners and being concerned with what a newer person who maybe doesn't know me all that well would think. If you let yourself get into that thought process and go down a rabbit hole of possibilities, you can really mind-f*** yourself.

00:07:32 Courtney Brame: For me, it was just a matter of, "Okay, let me go ahead and just—I got the information, the sooner the better." I would rather know in an instance like that. I'd want to know now, especially before I engage with anybody else, especially if I know that the people I see see other people. So for me it was just a matter of, "Hey, I got this information today and I just wanted to share it with you. I don't know anything about this, so I'm going to get tested." It was very similar to the text you sent. It was just a lot shorter, I would say. But yeah, I think that was really the only thing.

00:08:19 Courtney Brame: It was just like, "Damn, I got to tell people and I don't know how their reactions are going to go." But it was a real good litmus test for the quality of the kind of people that I have sex with and communicate with because no one said to me the worst possible things that people imagine are going to be said. I've never been met with those things. And I think for a regular person who may look from the outside in and be like, "Well, Courtney, you're in sex education. You know what to say." It ain't always what you say, it's also how it's being said. It's where the other person is, the context of the relationship, how they receive it, what kind of mood they're in. Are they hungry, are they hot, you know what I mean? So, I had some initial rockiness going into it, but then as it became more of a conversation, I think I became a lot more comfortable.

The Frustration of Unhelpful Medical Providers

00:09:19 Tamar Weir: Yeah, I get that. Did you feel like you had to have a lot of conversations through the Ureaplasma moments?

Courtney Brame: No. The conversations I had, I reached out to two of my board members who were in sexual health. Because one of them had just treated someone for it and she was like, "Yo, that is a b****." I was like, "What do you mean?" She was explaining to me how long it takes for the test results to get back, the treatment turnaround time. And then another board member shared what her experience was with it in the space and she was like, "Yeah, it's a colonizer," which I don't know what that means in terms of an STI. But I got that information and I was like, "Okay."

00:10:06 Courtney Brame: And then when I went and saw my doctor—I talked about this already—but my doctor didn't even want to say the word penis. So, I was just like, "Oh, that's the kind of care I'm in today." The nurse was much more comfortable talking about sex, and I was asking her like five questions, and then I was like, "I'm supposed to ask these to the doctor, aren't I?" She was like, "Yes." I said, "Okay." And the way she looked was kind of like, "Oh, you're in for a treat." Because he didn't know anything. He could have said anything, but he chose to say nothing.

He was explaining to me how to do the urine test for Ureaplasma. And he was like, "Yeah, you want to take the cup and we want to do a clean swab. So what you'll do is you'll wipe the... and then pee in the cup."

00:10:53 Courtney Brame: I don't think a sound came out but I just made a face like, "I believe in you, sir." So I did it, but when I came back he was very confident. I don't want to use the word knowledgeable, but he was very confident in presenting me information. I don't know if there's like a medical ChatGPT or something that he brushed up on real quick, but he was on it. And all of his responses were confusing because he said you can have it and not know it. It can show up without symptoms. It can go away on its own and it's one of the tricky ones to get tested for.

00:11:38 Courtney Brame: That was all the information that I got and I was like, "Well, why isn't this on a standard test? Give me more information." So I left out of there with probably more questions than answers.

Tamar Weir: Did you feel like when you were there at the clinic you were more confused? You said you left with more questions. It sounds like you got some important information, but were you left with a lot of question marks?

Courtney Brame: Yeah. Because it was really just a waiting game because the test took 10 to 14 days. So I'm just like, "Do I take the medication now? Do I assume that I have it? What do I do?" And it was just like, "Well, we don't know. It can go away on its own."

00:12:25 Courtney Brame: So I was like, "Well, f***. I don't want to take medication for something I don't have. So all right, I'll just wait the two weeks." So yeah, that was a process for me. It was just a matter of having to wait on this and that was it.

Tamar Weir: Yeah. It's a long waiting game.

Courtney Brame: I know. And I can't imagine what it was like for you. We communicated throughout the process, but how are you? If you're comfortable sharing what that journey was for you from the time that you found out or had symptoms?

Tamar Weir: It's been a long journey and still one that is in process. The blog that I wrote last week was just a way of condensing the process for me that I've been in.

00:13:16 Courtney Brame: I'll be sure to link that in the show notes as well.

Tamar Weir: Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's been—I've been talking to you about the confusion of it and sending little updates here and there because it has been such a long process that has required a good amount of patience, which is hard for me. I have been going through some other urethral and vaginal pain that could be connected but, for the sake of this conversation, maybe a little disconnected from Ureaplasma alone. But that's actually what led me to get tested for Ureaplasma, was that I was and still am having some urethral symptoms.

I get regularly tested usually like every 3 months, sometimes sooner depending on the context or who I'm with. That's pretty routine for me. Pretty standard, pretty easy. But I had a new doctor who is a urologist. It was a specialist that I had requested to see for some other concerns that I've been having.

00:14:34 Tamar Weir: In one of our first meetings after telling him a little bit about what I was experiencing, he suggested that I get tested for some weirder STIs. I talk about that in the blog and criticize a little bit, because he's not my favorite doctor. I will say definitely not recommending him. But once I spoke to him and asked, "What do you mean by that? Let's unpack it a little," he recommended that I get tested for Ureaplasma and Mycoplasma.

Once I got tested for those, my urine culture sample came back positive. And then from there I went into a discussion with him. But again, my doctor, maybe similar to yours, didn't really give me a lot of information. If anything, my doctor gave me even less than yours because we did an online appointment. A lot of appointments now in the healthcare system are online. It's all about efficiency. I didn't even really see him. I actually still have not seen him in person.

00:15:44 Tamar Weir: The information he gave me was very confusing and not clear. I got the test, it was positive, and I was trying to ask him about what he thinks and a larger framework for this. But basically he was like, "This is your only option: do this antibiotic treatment." So that is what I did. It was a pretty standard 10-day antibiotic treatment. After that, you're supposed to wait a given amount of time to get retested. Every STI is different; the window of testing and waiting is unique to each one.

But even that, as I was doing my own research and speaking with people in my community and trying to gather information for my blog and for my own healing, I really had to do most of the research and the digging.

00:16:52 Tamar Weir: Which was frustrating, because we want to be able to really trust and lean on providers and not have to carry that weight alone. But this doctor did not really carry anything in this journey. He's just kind of there. After I got the treatment, I still was feeling like I had symptoms. So I was curious as to what my test would be. I waited a few weeks and got retested and it came back negative. But while I was doing all of that, I was disclosing to people, having conversations, and doing quite a bit of research just to really understand this bacteria in a more intimate way.

Understanding Ureaplasma and Reframing "Cleanliness"

Courtney Brame: It's a good point for me to define what Ureaplasma is. It says here on Google AI mode, "Ureaplasma is a group of microscopic bacteria that naturally live in the human respiratory and urogenital tracts. For most people, these bacteria are completely harmless commensals." I've never seen this word before. "Meaning they exist in a peaceful balance with the rest of the body's microbiome without causing any symptoms. However, if the bacteria multiply excessively and cause an overgrowth or if a person has a compromised immune system, they can act as opportunistic pathogens and lead to localized infections."

00:18:14 Tamar Weir: The thing about it is that it is a commensal bacteria, which means that it can live inside the urogenital tract without causing disturbance or symptoms or any harm. When there's an opportunity, it's like an opportunistic bacteria. So when there's an opportunity for it to grow, then it will. If everything is healthy, the pH and all of these things are in balance, then it won't grow. This bacteria will just stay at a base level.

That's why I feel like even the information that I was given was very confusing. Unlike other STIs that need to be treated immediately and it's best when they are treated immediately, Ureaplasma is a little different because it can live inside a healthy body without causing disturbance, but it can also multiply and cause symptoms. So it's definitely a more nuanced bacteria.

00:19:09 Courtney Brame: And as I look at this, what comes to mind is something that I've talked about in the past: the way that we view viruses, bacteria, parasites, and fungi is so disconnected. We associate it with filth and dirtiness and a lack of cleanliness, when it says right here that it just lives there and presents no symptoms, like a lot of different organisms do. It's like no harm no foul until things are off-balance, and essentially the bacteria is doing the same s*** that we do to the earth. We eat, we populate, we s***, we create waste, and if that happens too fast in a small localized area, boom, we get inflammation. We get swelling, we get pain, we get symptoms that just basically say, "All right, now we got to treat this thing."

Being able to humanize bacteria—look at how similarly it behaves. We have this whole ecosystem that is in, on, around our bodies and people are so quick to call themselves or others dirty. I think that is one of those things that perpetuates stigma: the language that we use and the untruthfulness of what it means to live with a virus or bacteria or to have an infection.

00:20:20 Courtney Brame: It's like, okay, now you know, let's get it treated or manage it. And that's really all that it takes.

Tamar Weir: Yeah. I think that's a good point definitely to bring into the conversation. I think that's where a lot of fear comes into it. Of course, there are levels of fear that are important in this discussion too. But I think one element for sure is the dirtiness because of this stigma around cleanliness and bacteria. That is definitely an element that brings fear when it could be different. Bacteria isn't inherently a bad thing. It can be a much more nuanced conversation and it's sad to see that it oftentimes isn't. Especially in these types of conversations.

00:21:27 Tamar Weir: Because bacteria is not unique to STIs, right? Bacteria is a larger thing and then it enters into the STI and sexual world too. So yeah, definitely a good point to bring into the conversation.

Courtney Brame: I thought I was about to enter some beef online with somebody who called herpes a parasite and I was like, "Bro, herpes does not behave like a parasite. Parasites thrive at the expense of their host's health." I had to explain that and fortunately the back and forth explanation was healthy and people were able to see that. But usually that ain't the case. I think people online just want to get the last word. They want to just be the loudest and just be saying s***. So this was pleasant. I was very happy with that engagement.

Creating Scripts for Sexual Health Discussions

00:22:27 Courtney Brame: All right. So, I want to make a clean transition. It's been a while since I interviewed anybody on the podcast. I'm like, am I doing this right?

Tamar Weir: It's June. It's officially summer in 20 days. So we're in a new moment.

Courtney Brame: We are. It's been at least a season. I'm out of practice, but let's go ahead and go into this. We talked about Ureaplasma, we talked about the treatment, we talked about your experience and then my experience of having you initiate the communication. Like I know you said you're used to this, but you and I are both in the field of sex education, so we're a little bit more familiar with that. This is a normal conversation. So I'm curious to know if you and I having the conversation or you initiating the text that you did with me, would it be a little bit different if it were someone not in the space or not familiar with sexual health STIs? I don't know if that question is making sense.

Tamar Weir: I get it. I think it's important for each person to discern who they're speaking to and how they want to speak to that person. A high level of respect and care should be included of course. And each person you're talking to you have a different relationship with.

00:24:13 Tamar Weir: You have a different connection with them. So I think that each conversation can be a little different. It's actually really hard to have the same conversation with different people because we're different, you know. When I started the conversation with you, it felt pretty natural to me. Because you're also in the sexual health and education umbrella, I had more trust that you would be able to receive that information. Because of the work that you do and your own personal life, I felt very calm disclosing that information and having that conversation via text.

With other people in my life who are not sexual educators or in this general work, there's also a level of trust of course because these people are in my life. But it is a little different, and I would navigate conversations a little bit differently depending on each person and my connection with them.

Courtney Brame: I'm glad you said that because I think that's important too. We were talking a little bit before this—it may not always be what you say, but how you say it, too. And the different relationships being important to the conversation. I talk to a lot of people who want to know how to disclose in the sense of, "What do I say?" And after having a little bit of back and forth curiosity where I'm like, "Okay, well, what's your relationship to the person? How do y'all communicate? How'd y'all meet? What do y'all do?" Over time, they say exactly what it is that they need to say to the person, which is always beautiful because I'm not giving people a script to share this information.

00:26:34 Courtney Brame: It's more so just an acknowledgement of what the relationship is, the person that you're talking to, and delivering the information to them the way that y'all interact.

Tamar Weir: Right. I think having a sense of authenticity, making the conversation feel more like you, is always helpful. I think that definitely though, I have a lot of people in my life who do want maybe a script or just want to feel more confident having these conversations, and I do think that having little mock scripts is always helpful and makes it a little more playful.

Courtney Brame: What do you mean? Like a mock script. Can you give an example?

Tamar Weir: Like I remember in the beginning of my journey, before I was studying and in the work that I am in now. Just when I was 18-year-old, 19-year-old me living life and having my sexual endeavors. I was a very sexual person and I wanted to explore a lot and I was naturally curious about a lot. So I would have a lot of conversations and have had a lot of experiences.

00:27:27 Tamar Weir: I feel like I made little scripts for myself because I didn't know anybody who had herpes at the time. I knew maybe one person. And most of the people that I was having sex with didn't have herpes or any STI. So I kind of felt alone in the journey. I would make myself little scripts. Sometimes I'd practice them. Sometimes I would edit them. Sometimes I didn't have a script and in the moment, what would come out came out.

But I do think that it kind of helped me refine what words I like to use and what feel good for me. Not necessarily in a way where it's a copy/paste and I'm not letting myself be authentic in the moment, but more as a way of—like when you're in theater and you have a script and then you go off script a little bit. You have a little base template to make you feel good and you can choose what you want to include on the script.

00:28:49 Tamar Weir: It can be empowering because it's not like somebody's giving you a script and you're forced to read it. It's more like you are creating the script. I think that can be useful for people who are less familiar with these conversations, who struggle getting words out, who struggle with communication.

Courtney Brame: Yeah, I never thought about that. I think I've always been the kind of person to just say, "I'm going to do the thing and then adjust for next time." And that s*** got me in trouble actually now that I'm thinking about it. Because you can recalibrate in such an extreme to where the way that I deliver information to one person, they'd be like, "I wish you would have done it this way." And I'm like, "All right, bet. Moving forward, I'll deliver it this way."

00:29:54 Courtney Brame: But then the next person you deliver the information to wishes you would have done it the original way. Authenticity being the word that you use, right? I see the importance of that. There's no right or wrong. There's real and not real in this context. Like we're not talking about ethics. We're talking about delivering the information. You can do it in an authentic way or an inauthentic way.

Tamar Weir: Right.

Courtney Brame: And so the only wrong way is to deliver it in a way that's not true to you. And if you're somebody who uses certain words, and you know the relationship, you may say it a little bit differently, right? So I appreciate that offering. So if somebody wants to make their own script, where should they start?

Tamar Weir: I was reflecting about this a little bit in my blog about Ureaplasma and disclosing—when it happens via text versus in person and all of those elements. I think that disclosing any sort of change in our body can be anxiety-producing or can create complicated feelings, whether that's a new pain that we have or something beautiful and more positive, or an STI. Anytime there's a change, there is just newness. I know that in my disclosure journey, I have edited and come a long way in the types of conversations that I have with people. Like you said, there's no right way to do it. Of course, there are some ways that are very hurtful and disrespectful, but I don't really think there is one right way to have these conversations.

00:31:40 Tamar Weir: In making a script, what I like to think about is my personality. I like to think about the experiences I've had. I like to think about what identities I hold because all of these things already naturally influence the work that I do and how I move every day. I would sit down and be like, "Okay, what are a few words I would use to describe my personality?" Am I naturally more spunky and talk in this kind of way? Am I naturally a little bit more shy and quiet? I would start there and then think through some experiences I've had that are notable, some identities that I hold that are relevant, and let all of those things sit together and ask, "What could I make from this?"

00:32:32 Tamar Weir: An example of a script I don't use anymore, just for inspiration or to visualize, was when I was younger, I identified as fully extroverted, very spunky, very outgoing. So that would be the personality element. And then I had identities that I was holding at the time—being a highly sexual person wanting to explore, but also this new identity of having herpes and feeling shame. I had a lot of other identities—being a woman, among many other things. I also had the more personal emotional identity of being the caretaker in a lot of dynamics.

My beginning script would start out very spunky and outgoing. Then towards the middle when I started getting into the "Okay, I have herpes," the shame and that new identity would get brought in. The stigma would come in there. Then I would put on that caretaker role and really jam-pack the conversation with all the facts and details as a way to be caring for the other person, putting them above me, giving all the resources and spilling so much about myself. I give this example not as something that I do now, but holding tenderness for a script that worked for me at the time. If I were to do that now, it wouldn't feel authentic. But authenticity comes in waves and we change all the time as people.

Courtney Brame: I remember an old text that I've sent and it's funny in hindsight. I'd never use it again, but I talked about it in the No Shame In This Game documentary and it always gets a good chuckle. I used to send a text and be like, "All right, hey, before you fall madly in love with me, I got something I need to tell you. I need to tell you I got herpes. Because I'm such an awesome person, I want you to be able to make that decision from a place of not being madly in love with me."

00:34:22 Courtney Brame: On one hand it's like, oh this is a confident ass person. But then on the other hand I'm offering this as a disclaimer in a way, and it made the process of initiating that discussion feel like a disclosure, like we're signing legal documents. It always would make a "me versus you" dynamic when the reality is that we're talking about our sexual health together.

Discussion vs. Disclosure

Courtney Brame: So thinking about it as a conversation rather than a confession, or a discussion rather than a disclosure, is how to make it a collaborative effort. It's me and you collaborating with this event which is our sexual health.

00:35:22 Tamar Weir: I like what you just said about it being a conversation, not a confession. I like the alliteration there. The two C's. It's just a phrase I really like. Like I don't know why we're all feeling like it's so confession-based, you know? Like we're not out here confessing. It's actually co-created. How did you feel about my text and how are you feeling now? I guess this was about a month and a half ago. Just checking in.

Courtney Brame: That's never happened where somebody reached out to me and said, "Hey, I might have something. I might have exposed you to it. You should get tested." I'm thinking about it now and running through it, and no, it's just not happened.

00:36:26 Courtney Brame: I've had people tell me they have herpes first and I always f*** with them about it. Like if I don't have to say anything first, especially if the person has no idea who I am, I'm always like, "Oh, doesn't everybody have that?" I'll just say something like that. It's just a fun space to be in when someone doesn't know what I do or who I am. So I get to play the role of a civilian in the sexual conversation space and I'm not the educator or the caretaker in that sense.

I remember having to have a chlamydia conversation with partners, and that was received well, but I expected that to be received poorly.

00:37:28 Courtney Brame: It makes me think a lot of the people that I talk to have the expectation that when they tell someone they have herpes that they're going to have a drink thrown in their face, that they're going to be blasted on the internet. And that has literally never been my experience for as many times as I've told people that I have herpes, or even in sharing with partners at the time that I had chlamydia, or even having to discuss Ureaplasma. There are three instances of this kind of discussion initiation where nothing bad has happened. It's actually just led to beautiful experiences later and healthy communication.

So how I felt was grateful. The gratitude of being the kind of person that you feel like you can tell that to. Because I think being a straight Black man, I know that a lot of the people I talk to who have experiences with straight Black men, they're like, "Oh, I could never say that," or "Oh, I didn't realize you were this open-minded." I get a lot of those kinds of conversations just because of the stigma and stereotypes that come with being a Black man and the expectations of not being able to communicate. But yeah, it was validating for me to be seen as a person that can be communicated with about something vulnerable. I was just grateful for it.

00:38:21 Tamar Weir: Me as well. Grateful for sure. I think it's very important to acknowledge our identities and what people may project onto us because of that. I think that's very important in sex work and sexual health work and creating intimacy with others. We all have different experiences and people may project things onto us. A lot of people don't assume maybe that you are going to be open about this because of the stereotypes of being a Black man who is straight. And so it's like, what does it mean to hold that identity?

Courtney Brame: Having had the experience and been on the other side of it, and having the conversations with the other partners that I've had, I feel like I know a little bit more about something that I didn't know about. And it's nice to be able to speak to it. This thing that I had no idea existed. I even had that come up in a conversation with someone. I was like, "Yeah I was tested for these things and Ureaplasma as well recently." And a lot of people don't know about that and it's like, "Oh yeah that one sucks."

00:39:15 Courtney Brame: You'd be surprised at what happens when we initiate and invite these kinds of conversations into our life. Everybody wants to f***, but nobody wants to talk about f******, right?

Making Sexual Health Conversations Sexy

Tamar Weir: I know. And that is an important piece that we can really discuss a little bit. I noticed that a lot. Beyond the accuracy of getting tested and the logistical things that sometimes need to be included in these kinds of conversations—like spreading and all of that—there's also an element of connecting with people and having these conversations in a way that feels connected. Beyond giving the facts and the necessary info.

00:40:18 Tamar Weir: Can we have these conversations before having sex that actually make us want to have sex? That make us feel inspired and it doesn't need to be a chore? I understand why it can feel like that, like it is heavy. And it's okay for it to be heavy. It doesn't need to be light all the time, but can we make these conversations feel lighter when there is space for it to be lighter, and can we make them feel sexy? I don't know where along the way conversations just got seen as not sexy. I've had people in my life who have never had a conversation before sex. I think a lot of people operate with that path, where the conversation maybe is after, if anything. I want conversations to be sexy for people.

Courtney Brame: Yeah. Absolutely. I was laughing over here because I was thinking of when you said conversations happening after, because people will have sex and then you have that post-nut clarity. You're like, "Oh s***. Hey, you ain't got nothing, do you? Do you have anything?" After just not using a condom at all. Like now you want to have this conversation? So that was just why I was laughing. But yes, the conversation doesn't need to be dreaded. I always say it can be playful, right?

00:41:14 Tamar Weir: It can be playful. And discerning too—if the energy of everybody involved is heavy that day, make it heavy. But if the energy can be playful and it can be light, it can go down that path. It doesn't need to be heavy just because it is inherently a conversation about sex. Having these conversations is hard. We both talk to folks in our work and that is echoed in a lot of people's experiences. But if I could help myself and help other folks, I just would really love it if we could all, as a community, as a society, be a little bit more open to saying things out loud, to saying what we want out loud.

00:42:12 Courtney Brame: More conversations can be had from this, but speaking about not just the safety piece, but the pleasure piece. Sex is supposed to be fun and I think people forget that. Roller coasters are fun. If you just run on a roller coaster and you don't recognize the possible outcomes, you might get hit. But there are all these safety protocols that are in place and they ask you to just strap up, put your belt on, and enjoy the ride. So balancing out the spectrum of safety and pleasure—and I don't really like using the word safety because it implies an inherent danger, but that's the best word we got right now. Language is important, so recognizing that safe sex is communicative sex, and that is how we also begin to expand into that bubble of pleasure as well. So if I were to leave this off at any kind of a note, I think it would be that safe sex is communicative sex, and thank you for your communication.

00:43:09 Tamar Weir: You are welcome. Thank you for yours. Conversations can be sexy. I'll just leave it at that. They don't have to be, but they can be.

Courtney Brame: How can people connect with you?

Tamar Weir: If people want to connect with me, they can follow me on Instagram at @pomegranatepleasure, and reach out to me on there. They can read some of my blog, which is Everything Juicy. It's a Wix site. It's also linked on my Instagram and they can find it through this podcast. I have an email that is open to folks if they want to email me and it is pomegranatepleasurefortamar@gmail.com.

Outro & NYC Herpes Stigma Expo

00:44:05 Courtney Brame: All right, thank you so much. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like, rate, review, share, subscribe to this podcast. The newsletter as well is just if you Google "herpes newsletter," it's like the first thing that shows up so you can be up to speed with our updates and events.

August 29th, we have the Herpes Stigma Expo in New York City. So come through. We're going to be doing some yoga stuff to help with stigma. We're going to have guest speakers. We're going to have Jordan Jones, the podcast host of Vaginas, Vulvas, and Vibrators, who's going to do a fun pleasure-based activity for us. And then we'll do some role plays where people can get practice talking about their sexual health status with partners. We'll have some prizes and gift cards for people who want to be in our social media scripts. And yeah, we'll have food and it'll be a good time. All right, until next time, y'all. Stay present.

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