SPFPP 411: Access Points for Exploration - with Kiki Maree

SPFPP 411 Transcript

Intro & SPFPP Announcements

00:00:00 Courtney Brame: Hello, welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization supporting people who are navigating herpes stigma. And a couple quick announcements before we get into today's podcast episode, which has a guest that's willing to put her face out there. Well, I guess it's not super uncommon that I have a guest that's willing to have their face out there and on camera, but it's not been consistent. Let's say that.

If you're someone who is okay with speaking about your experience with herpes and navigating stigma, I would love to have you be a guest on the podcast. I do not want to interview people anonymously anymore. I don't care what your first name is. I can call you whatever, but I have no reason to say your name on the podcast episode to be completely honest. We're two people who are having a conversation together. Neither of us should have any reason to say each other's name.

00:00:52 Courtney Brame: But it feels like over the years of evolution of Something Positive for Positive People, there's no longer a need to have to create that comfort for people to be willing to just anonymously say whatever it is that they want. I don't really ask for much more than just being able to have a conversation about your experience with herpes the same way that people are offering it to those of us who need it, needed it, or will need it. It's just one way to reciprocate some type of energy into the community, into the space, to be able to support people in their own healing.

Now, a couple quick announcements. The Herpes Stigma Expo for the fall is in New York City. It is on August 29th, which is a Saturday, and it will go from 11:00 a.m. until about 6:00 p.m. It's just a day of support. I look forward to being able to get people to show up, meet each other, mingle, have food together, role play some rejection handling, as well as some fun stuff in regards to speaking about sex, sexual health, and pleasure.

00:02:03 Courtney Brame: And then we'll do a little bit of yoga. So, if that's something you're interested in, visit spfpp.org/expo. This is the last one that I am planning to do. Things are going to be looking different as we close out 2026 and enter 2027, but those are things that you'll hear throughout different variations of intros for the podcast that come to be.

So I mentioned we have a guest and I am going to let our guest introduce themselves and then share how we connected. And then we're going to take it old school. We're gonna do the podcast the way that we used to always do it when I had like four guests over the course of a week and three interviews in a day. So we're jump-starting how things used to be. Go on ahead.

Kiki Maree: Hey, thank you so much for having me, Courtney. I'm absolutely stoked to be here. I love your podcast so much. It's such a gift.

00:03:01 Kiki Maree: A little bit about me. My name is Kiki Maree. I'm an Australian sexologist and I mainly work with women and vulva-havers, but I also work with couples around female sexuality and dynamics and patterns that can show up between people. One of the things that I love to do is to reduce shame and stigma around all topics of sexuality. So yeah, this is one that's quite near and dear to my heart, but I like to jump into those spaces whenever and wherever I can.

That's what led me to you. I saw one of my colleagues—it would have been a fair few years ago now—do an episode with you talking about nutrition and herpes because that's kind of her area of specialization. You came up on my radar then. It's been a bit of time since then, but I started getting back into the podcast circuit and I thought I'd reach out and see if I could share some useful tips for your community, some insight, my own experience, and continue to help to reduce these spaces of shame and stigma.

00:04:17Courtney Brame: Before I forget, I need you to tell people how they can find you so that even after they're listening, maybe they just want to scroll your Instagram or your website. Can you share that here?

Kiki Maree: Yeah, I'm pretty active on Instagram, actually. It's probably the best place to connect with me. I usually get back to people that are in my DMs pretty quickly. My main Instagram account is @yoniclicious. I also have a backup because I do get shadowbanned or deleted here and there. So I've got @kiki.maree as my backup. Otherwise, my website has a bunch of free resources on there and some courses, which is yoniclicious.com.au.

Courtney Brame: Do people do that thing where they're like, "Kiki, do you love me? Are you riding?" I thought about it. I didn't want to say anything until we talked a few times. I didn't want you to be like, "Oh, we got one of those people again." I just knew it was a common thing for you.

00:05:17 Courtney Brame: All right. So, you mentioned finding the work and you mentioned having your own personal experience as well. Out of curiosity, when you say your own personal experience, what do you mean?

Experiencing and Normalizing Oral Herpes

Kiki Maree: When I was around 16 or so, I had my first outbreak on my mouth of herpes. I'd been surrounded—everyone in my family pretty much had cold sores when I was young. So I was very familiar with oral herpes. Who knows how long I had had it for, that was just my first experience having an outbreak with it myself personally.

00:06:19 Kiki Maree: It was huge. I know it's pretty common for the first outbreak to be pretty big, but my mouth was like a golf ball. To the point where it felt like my skin was going to split and it was touching up near my nose. It was so swollen and my next few outbreaks were pretty huge like that. That's been my personal experience with having herpes. But then also seeing behind the scenes of how emotionally difficult it can be living with herpes and disclosing—or having the discussion. I learned that from you: having the discussion.

Courtney Brame: I was so ready! I was so ready to say that.

Kiki Maree: Yeah! I was like, I know I'm going to say disclosure because it's what I was taught, so it's what I've used forever. But I learned that from you and I love the discussion piece around it so much.

00:07:20 Kiki Maree: Having a behind-the-scenes insight into how tricky and how heavy it can be for people that are dating—it kind of lit a bit of that fire and passion in me in the work of helping to reduce shame and stigma and finding ways that I can do it within my community. I also have had a couple of lovers where we've had the discussion around STI status and I did notice that I was much more aware during the sexual encounters. Even though I know lots of people haven't told me that they've had herpes, or maybe they didn't know, I was pretty carefree with condoms for a lot of my sexual history. Once I did know somebody's status, that they had genital herpes, I was way more diligent and aware. It was really interesting to see that side of it as well.

00:08:34 Kiki Maree: When a condom would come off, even though they weren't having an outbreak, I would feel a little bit more scared. There was more fear involved, and I sort of noticed my own fear and prejudices coming up in those experiences.

Courtney Brame: When you say "carefree about condoms," are you saying not really using them, or are you saying because you use condoms you don't have any worries?

Kiki Maree: More on the side of only using them if I was ovulating and then not really worrying about it otherwise.

Courtney Brame: Got you. Okay. I was just curious. I was going to take the conversation in two directions, but I needed to clarify that. Your dating experience, relationships... I'm finding that I am hearing from more people who are concerned about their oral herpes.

00:09:32 Courtney Brame: I just call it oral/genital more so than type 1/type 2, because so many people get diagnosed by just a visual and they're like, "Oh, it's type 2 because it's genital." That misinformation perpetuates stigma because we assume that type 2 is only contracted via genital-to-genital sexual contact because you can't get herpes type 2 orally. But the reality is more HSV-1 cases have been occurring—at least since I began advocacy in 2017—because people who have HSV-1 orally are performing oral sex on people who may not be aware or don't care or think they're not going to get herpes.

So my question for you is, what's been your experience with having the discussion as someone who has cold sores performing oral sex on partners, or even making out with partners?

Kiki Maree: I've never had the discussion unless I've had an outbreak or I feel like I could be having one. I've never really said to somebody, "Yeah, I do have oral herpes," before kissing,

00:10:48 Kiki Maree: or before giving a b******. It's not really been something that I've ever thought about, which has been a lot of the fodder for my work when I talk about reducing shame and stigma. Like, how you don't ask somebody about this before you kiss. It's a skin condition and there's not that sort of seriousness around it. Let's bring that lightness in. Not necessarily not chatting about it, but using the energy of like, okay, it's a skin condition. It happens sometimes, and just because you have it doesn't mean you're always infectious. Doesn't mean you can always transmit it. Doesn't mean that we have to treat it as if it's something that is going to destroy your life, you know?

It's kind of an issue because it therefore can mean that I could transmit it, or that there's a lack of discussion around it. It also for me is a little bit of fuel to that reducing the shame and stigma piece. Let's take a softer approach, as you would with oral herpes.

00:11:54 Courtney Brame: You mentioned that you got your first symptoms, your first outbreak that you can remember, in high school. It was normalized for you, but did things progress or change for you when you had physical symptoms and you needed to communicate this to partners? I'm curious, where was the crossroads between "I have oral herpes or cold sores, my family has cold sores, everything's fine," to a point where you may have first noticed or realized that, oh, this is something that affects people sexually?

Kiki Maree: Well, I think because my first outbreak was so huge, there was still a little bit of an element of shame there.

00:13:04 Kiki Maree: And I also didn't really like where my outbreak happened. I remember I would always be like, "I wish it happened on my lower lip," because it was so close to my nose. I really just disliked the location of the outbreak and how huge it was. I definitely felt shame around it. When I first walked into the pharmacy, I was like, "I'm pretty sure this is a cold sore, but I've never seen one look like this before." I was covering my mouth. I didn't want anyone to see this. There was definitely shame there.

00:13:56 Kiki Maree: So, even though I'd seen cold sores my whole life and understood that it was something that came and went, there was that uncomfortability. For years after, I'd have maybe one or two a year and they would be huge again. I felt really shy. When my partners would see it, they'd be like, "Whoa, that's huge," and recoil from being anywhere near me and not wanting to lay on the same pillow as me. There was definitely a huge change with how I was interacting with the world. And that changed my perspective a lot.

I definitely was happy when the sores got smaller. I certainly was scared that there was now a fear that I could transmit without knowing it because sometimes it would kind of come out of nowhere.

00:15:11 Kiki Maree: Oftentimes it would actually happen not long after a b******. I'd feel a tingle and I'd be like, "Oh my f****** god. Oh no. This isn't good." And then I would talk to the partner about it instead of before, which I know you've chatted about on the podcast before—having that discussion beforehand versus afterwards. But I think because it's oral herpes and that collective fear around it isn't really there, it hasn't felt so pertinent. But since those experiences, it's been like, "Oh f***. This could be a thing."

Courtney Brame: I'm looking at your face and it looks kind of like you're processing this in real time. Is that all right?

Kiki Maree: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I've had chats with partners here and there before, but for the most part, it's definitely been after the fact because it happens maybe once every couple of years there'll be a tingle and I'll be like, "Oh, that's right. I have oral herpes.

00:16:18 Kiki Maree: Oh, that's right. I can transmit it without necessarily seeing a sore." Which I also didn't learn until much later in life. I think I didn't learn that until my late 20s. I thought there had to be a sore to be able to transmit it. So I think that lack of education, and so many years of thinking, "Oh, unless I have a sore, I'm good," fed into that lack of conversation around it.

Reframing Language: It's Herpes, Not Just a Cold Sore

Courtney Brame: I'm curious about the perception of you being someone now who talks about Yoni Health—which we'll talk more about specifically to understand it better and how people can benefit from that. But going into speaking about herpes, it's not like you're saying, "Oh yeah, I get cold sores. I only get cold sores." But it's, "I have herpes and here's how it manifests."

I think that a lot of people who get cold sores call them cold sores and don't call it oral herpes. Especially when we see people online who maybe have larger followings or have this moment where it's kind of like a place of privilege.

00:17:32 Courtney Brame: They may be in fitness. They may be in health. They may be in entertainment and they'll be like, "Oh, yeah, I just got a cold sore. It's no big deal." And maybe there's some blissful ignorance around the fact that that's still herpes. But what stands out to me is the way that you talk about it in the sense of, "Like yeah, I get cold sores. This is herpes, right?" I'm curious to know how that feels for you to speak to it as herpes versus cold sores, especially within your communities and your online presence.

00:18:31 Kiki Maree: It feels really good, and I intentionally try as often as I can to not use the word cold sores because of the privilege. It's like I can talk about it in a way that doesn't automatically trigger that fear response in people. And it feels really important to feed into that it's a skin condition. It's f****** common. Let's not have this shame that's around it.

Growing up hearing my mom talk about it, I know she definitely used terminology that was shameful to do with genital herpes versus oral herpes. But also, what was great was that she educated me that you can transmit it from your mouth to your genitals. She was always saying to me and my brother, "Make sure you're really careful because you can transmit it." So, I always knew that it was herpes.

00:19:37 Kiki Maree: I always knew that it was transmissible between the mouth and the genitals. But I still always used the term "cold sore" because that's colloquially what was used until I learned that it could help with stigma around genital herpes. It felt so good to be able to use one word that could help to bring light to the fact that it's something very common, something that everyone has, and educate that it's something that can be transmissible also to the genitals. So yeah, I like using that term.

Courtney Brame: Thank you. I come across people who are deathly afraid of passing herpes on to their kids. You're someone who had herpes passed on to you as a kid clearly, and it was in the family and there were no concerns about it. I'd like to hear about your experience of how it was talked about and how it was perceived in your family.

00:20:58 Courtney Brame: I don't have kids. I didn't know any of my relatives that had cold sores. So the only thing that I can think of to say is, I think you would f*** your kid up more by not showing them love and affection than by giving them herpes, you know? And it's a wild thing to say it like that. I get it. But what we're talking about here is oral herpes, a skin-to-skin contact virus that is clearly just in the family.

But that shame is so prevalent that it will keep a parent from loving on their kid with physical affection or kissing them, or making any type of bodily contact because of their own stigma and shame. And then there's the unwillingness to even talk to anyone about it, let alone their kids, to be like, "Hey, mommy or daddy has this, this is herpes and I don't want you to get it. So when you see this, just know that it doesn't mean I don't love you,

00:21:54 Courtney Brame: but I'm not going to kiss you and be as affectionate." Right? That's what makes the most sense to me. But I don't have the experience that you have, having it normalized in your household. And what I'm asking of you is to just kind of speak to what that was like.

Kiki Maree: Yeah, it felt very much just like a part of life. I think my perspective was, if you don't have it, it's strange. And that carried into my sexuality, assuming that... while it changed when I had a discussion with someone who let me know that they had genital herpes, my internal world changed a little bit. Throughout my entire sexual history, I just kind of assumed that everyone had herpes. Or that they could. Not that they did, but whenever I didn't use a condom, I was like, "They could very much have herpes, but I'm happy to take the risk right now. I don't care."

00:22:56 Courtney Brame: I do not want to forget to talk to you about that specifically. Like, "I don't care. I'm okay with risk." All right. Continue.

Kiki Maree: Yeah. So I feel like it actually was a huge benefit having those discussions, seeing cold sores. I knew it was sore and I wouldn't want to touch it. That would have been communicated to me from a young age before I can remember. But I don't really remember anything outside of that. It just was a normal thing in my family. I saw my grandmother, I saw my dad, I saw my mom have cold sores and herpes outbreaks on their mouths.

00:23:54 Kiki Maree: So I was just like, "Okay, that's just something that adults get." However, there was really bad language used around genital herpes, which was different. There was a moralization of the disease. If it's on your mouth, that's normal, but if it's on the genitals, then it's dirty. Or specifically I remember my mom using the term "grub." I don't know how much that fed into my feelings around it, but I know it wasn't language that I would be using talking to my kids about it.

It feels telling of the time and where I'm from. There's not a lot of conversation around anything to do with sexuality. Being a kid in a family with herpes, I was happy that I had an understanding of it.

00:25:09 Kiki Maree: I definitely wouldn't prefer my parents to not touch me or cuddle me and kiss me. I definitely prefer to contract it than to have that for sure. I was already intimate with people when I did have my first outbreak, so I can't know for sure, but I would say that I would have contracted it through 16 years of being around my family members who have HSV-1.

Courtney Brame: Thank you for sharing that. I don't know what it is, but lately I've been having more conversations with people who reach out—and this isn't in a shamey way at all—but these are people diagnosed with genital herpes who are afraid of passing it on to their kids. Mothers getting pregnant and giving birth, I understand the fear there, and we have things that we work around. If there is an outbreak during labor, performing a C-section, or boosting you with antivirals so that it reduces the chance of having an outbreak when delivering the baby.

00:26:26 Courtney Brame: But what is more common lately is that there are parents living with genital herpes who are afraid of touching their kids because they think that they're going to give it to them. There's a fear that is not rational, but it's exaggerated. It's exaggerated by the media. You don't want to give herpes to anybody, and it's assumed that if you just touch someone that they're going to get it. But the reality is that that isn't the case.

00:27:27 Courtney Brame: If your kid touches your pants pocket in your waistline, that doesn't mean that they're going to get it. The internal fear that I hear in people's voices when they're asking these questions... I have to tell them, "Hey, you know how herpes transmits, right? I don't think you need to worry about giving your kid herpes unless we need to have a different conversation, right?" But they're just frightened of it.

So I hope that you sharing your upbringing and the normalization of it helps them get to a place where they're like, "You know what, I should be able to talk to my kids about this." It's a real thing that they too may come across in adulthood or middle school. Not to say that it is exclusively something that requires sexual activity, it's sensual contact.

00:28:23 Courtney Brame: There are people who feel like they can't tell their parents, their families, or their friends. Thank you.

Kiki Maree: My pleasure. It's interesting, I haven't really even thought about that. I have friends that have herpes and have had kids and have birthed vaginally, and I haven't seen that in the spaces that I've been in. So, I really appreciate that insight into what other experiences people are having. I do feel like a lot of it has to do with just shame that exists around sexuality in general. The moralization that we have around bodies, around sex, someone's own relationship to their diagnosis.

00:29:30 Kiki Maree: That can also be a place of healing, deepening that understanding, and getting better education in the condition itself and knowing just how common it is. Trying to protect someone from something that is so common is an impossible task, or a fruitless one if they come across it in their life anyways. Also, finding spaces like this podcast or Facebook groups can be so helpful in reducing that shame. Understanding that they're not alone, that it's a very common experience, and getting that permission piece from hearing voices like mine and yours. Permission to come to a better place with whatever's happening for them.

Risk, Negotiation, and Self-Accountability

00:30:54 Courtney Brame: Okay. I wrote it down so I didn't forget. I want to know about this free willingness to forego condom use in sexual experiences. You know that you have herpes, and my question is, what goes into the thought process of who you do and don't wear condoms with besides are you ovulating?

Kiki Maree: I would say one of my kinks is tabooness.

Courtney Brame: Hold on. Wait, wait, wait. So you know, I do not edit these. I have no desire to edit these. We talked a little bit before about where not to take this conversation. In the event that it's starting to get there, remember, just do like this. All right. If you feel like you want to introduce it or talk about it, we can. But I can maneuver around that topic if we need to. Just because the door's open and now you're responsible for cracking it or closing it a little bit. All right?

00:31:49 Kiki Maree: I mean, I've got a lot of taboo kinks.

Courtney Brame: Okay.

Kiki Maree: One of them, for example, is like Consensual Non-Consent (CNC), or finding the edges of things. I might be going to a sexual experience thinking I'm going to use a condom, and then because I put that rule to myself, suddenly it's a fun edge that I can play with and arousal kicks in and I'm like, "Oh my goodness, what if I don't? F*** it. Let's just not use a condom." And then I don't use a condom. And then I'm like, "Cool. Now I have to go get tested again. Oh my goodness. I'm so annoyed at myself."

Courtney Brame: Wait, wait. All right, we got to break this up into pieces. So, first off, I'm curious, how does this get negotiated? And I'll give you the background on why I'm asking this.

00:32:45 Courtney Brame: I have been historically very involved in sex education, sex-positive spaces, and that is a completely different world than the vanilla world that exists outside of those pockets where you are most likely having a conversation with someone about what your likes are, what your dislikes are, what brings you pleasure, how to be talked to, how to be touched. Coming out of that world and being in the vanilla world, I'm finding that more often than not, these conversations are very not normal.

So, is it that you are more so going with the flow of the partner who is like, "F*** it. I don't want to wear condoms anyway"? Because if I don't, I go on a f****** streak. So everybody that I am sexually active with, I wear condoms with. If I tell myself I'm wearing a condom, I cannot not wear a condom or it's a slippery slope. So for you, what I'm hearing is that this is fun for you to have a rule and then break it. It sounds like you might be more of a bratty mfer... but to yourself!

00:34:50 Kiki Maree: Yeah, definitely. Just an overall brat for sure. I don't necessarily like any kind of rule for sure.

Courtney Brame: Wait. So you're like, "Yeah, I'm going to give myself this rule just so I can slowly break it."

Kiki Maree: No, it's not intentional. That's the thing. I'm intentionally thinking, "I'm going to use a condom. Like definitely tonight, I don't want to go for another test." For example, when I was living in Bali, I was like, "I don't know if I trust the test. I don't want to deal with that." So I'll be like, "I'm definitely going to wear a condom." And then in the heat of the moment, I'm like, "Well, f*** it." I'm talking about I've had sex with a lot of people and there have been many different situations. There have been situations where I've said I am going to wear a condom and I have. It's not every single time, but a lot of the times...

00:35:40 Courtney Brame: Give me that right there. So you go from doing the thing that clearly feels better, and you're having to essentially rein it back a little bit for yourself because it's easy to hit the gas. It's harder to pump the brakes. But what you're saying is you might go in like, "Yeah, I'm not going to wear a condom." But then there's a turning point where you make the decision to wear a condom. What influences that decision at the turning point?

Kiki Maree: Usually, that would be something along the lines of I've just recently had a test and I can't be f***** to go and do it again so soon. Or the partner I'm with is like, "I actually really want to use a condom." Or a partner has had a discussion, they do have herpes or another STI, or they're not sure, and if I get in my head about it, I'm like, "You know what, actually maybe not."

00:36:53 Kiki Maree: It could also be depending on just how horny I am in that moment. If I'm not super horny when the condoms are out, I'll be like, "Yeah, let's go for it." But if I'm very horny, maybe my decision-making isn't as grounded as it would be when I'm not as horny.

Courtney Brame: Just wanted to clarify that first off, people can have sex if they have herpes without condoms and with condoms and still not pass it on. The thing that you're speaking to that I wanted to highlight here is safe sex is communicative sex. So you're communicating not just with the other person, but also with yourself. "Here's what I'm going to do. Here's where I'm comfortable with the changes." And it sounds like you're self-accountable. "F***, all right, I had sex with this person without a condom, and I probably shouldn't have done that. Let me go get tested." And it sounds like you're okay with the possible outcomes of doing that.

00:37:54 Kiki Maree: Yeah. Not afterwards. Afterwards, I'm like, "Oh, for f***** sake, why didn't I just use a condom?" Then I'm constantly checking my smell. "Has it changed?" Looking at my cervical fluid. "Are there changes?" Now I'm worried. So afterwards, usually the conversation is "let's not do that again." Let's both get tested first or use a condom.

00:38:24 Kiki Maree: The other thing is, as far as I know, I haven't transmitted HSV-1 ever. And I've kissed people and I've given b******* many times very close to an outbreak or tingles. So sort of to your point that you can still have the contact and not transmit the disease.

Courtney Brame: Yeah. And that's something else to understand too for people, as it relates to oral sex to genital sex, friction. Friction is so important, right? So, I always tell people, if you're gonna have sex, lubricant is important. Because we're not creating additional friction, creating tears in the skin where the virus is more actively capable of transmitting. And I think that with oral sex, there's a lot less friction, depending on what people are into.

00:39:01 Courtney Brame: Condoms, lubrication, and when we're talking about oral sex, there's typically more saliva involved, and people think that they transmit herpes through saliva. You've performed a lot of oral sex. I too have, and to my knowledge, have not passed it on to a partner who's been like, "Hey, Courtney, you're the last person I was with, I'm having these symptoms."

These are experiences that most people living with herpes who have an active and healthy sex life have no reason to go out into the public and be like, "Hey guys, I'm having great sex with herpes and I'm not transmitting it to people." Because they don't have a reason to. So this having become just sort of like my thing now, I'm putting it out there for people like you. I don't think you have a reason to ever just be open about and tell the world about your experiences with herpes other than feeling drawn here and us being able to connect. I can't thank you enough for being here and being willing to have this in-depth of a conversation about your experiences.

Kink, Taboo, and Somatic Access Points

00:40:01 Courtney Brame: What's important here for me in talking about this and just to declare my intention is that we're able to see a more expansive way of engaging in sex and having sex in ways that maybe aren't exclusively tied to intercourse. Because I think people believe when they get their diagnosis that their sex life is over, when the reality is it can be over if that's what you choose for it to be. But it's always going to look different. It'll look more communicative. So, as we're navigating this conversation, again, remember if we start to get into that section of things and you don't want to talk about it, let me know. I want to talk about what you said about self-exams, checking your fluids and odor, and making sure things are cool. And that'll transition us into talking about the work that you do and then we'll close out. All right.

Kiki Maree: Sounds good.

Courtney Brame: Perfect. All right. Last you left off at was CNC.

00:41:00 Kiki Maree: Yeah. Some of the most wonderful experiences that I've had, and that I've also seen in my work, is when people are able to find the struggles that they have in their sexuality as an access point into a deep understanding of their body, their desires, their sexuality, their relationship to others. For example, if somebody does have a diagnosis of an STI, that is an opportunity for more learning, for more growth. I studied a lot about STIs at university, but it wasn't until I experienced having chlamydia that I really understood it on a different level and I could interact with my body on a different level.

00:42:23 Kiki Maree: The same is true for people who are experiencing erectile disappointment. That can be an entry point into understanding pleasure and sex and intimacy beyond penetrative sex. And the same can be said for people who experience... in my history, I had a couple of experiences of boundary violations, and so this for me has been an access point into exploring my intimacy and connection with others of a violation that's in control with myself.

And that's not to say CNC is always something to do with a trauma or something big that happens in our intimacy. But all of these little hurdles or struggles that come up that change the way we view sex and intimacy can be such an access point into a deepening understanding of what it is that we desire or how we can show up in our sexuality differently. A lot of my CNC stuff is more fantasy-based and it's more relational as well.

00:43:51 Courtney Brame: I was gonna say it sounds like you're talking around talking about it.

Kiki Maree: I wanted to give some different perspectives and context. From my experience, I had a boundary crossed when I was in a relationship, and that was at the very early stages of my sexual journey. Before that, just having sex was really exciting for me. It was very new and exciting and novel. And then after this boundary violation happened, there was an entanglement of my arousal with a trespassing of my boundaries.

00:44:48 Kiki Maree: And so then I started getting really excited by the idea of either me having sex with somebody else when it's not allowed, or my partner having sex with somebody else when it's not allowed, like in the form of cheating. If it was something a little bit more taboo, that really excited me. It doesn't fit neatly into the category of consent or non-consent, but it does feel like it's associated with it. I guess that's also why I'm stepping around it, because I'm trying to find a way to communicate it in a way that fits into that box of CNC.

00:46:21 Kiki Maree: That's one example of the more taboo aspects of the things that light me up and get me excited. It came from a struggle in sexuality. To tie it into this conversation, I know that for some people that have had a diagnosis, it's been really hard for them, but then it's been one of the best things that has happened to them because it's meant that they've had better communication. They've been able to meet partners that are able to have those kinds of conversations. They've known their body.

00:47:21 Kiki Maree: Even in the kink space, there's some really fun play around medical scenes where somebody is a nurse and they're wearing gloves, and there's still intimacy that's happening, and it's a roleplay scenario that's really hot and sexy and fun. So yeah, I'm trying to find ways to tie it into this topic to make it relevant.

Moving Forward: Healing Through Sensuality

Courtney Brame: You did already. When you kept talking, I didn't want to cut you off. But what I heard is that that early experience was an access point. There was a podcast I did years ago with Veronica Yhns where we talked about the thing that traumatized us being activating and possibly turning us on because excitement and fear feel like the same thing. We view positive emotions with excitement, but fear is viewed with negative emotions, but we're still having a chemical response in the body.

00:48:29 Courtney Brame: And now it's a matter of what narrative we choose to give it. Is this sensation in the body fear, or is it excitement? And whenever that feeling comes up, we got to do something with it. We're going to do nothing about it (fear), or we're going to fight/flight/freeze, or we're going to move forward and we're going to respond. I like to call it the "forward response," where you recognize you're activated in some kind of way and then you take actions with that excess energy that has now been activated within you. It's kind of like powering up or going Super Saiyan.

00:49:29 Courtney Brame: Speaking for myself, my earliest sexual experiences had to be sneaky. Like I had to very much—it had to be very low-key, undercover, might get caught. And I know that that's something that has tied to things like we had short time limits, right? Like, "Hey, this is how much time we got. All right, bet. Challenge accepted."

Let's tie it to the nervous system real quick. When we're in survival mode and operating from that place for so long, we don't have time or space for our nervous system to recognize what's fun for us and what's play for us. For someone who is operating after a diagnosis, I think it can lock us into this kind of fear state of survival where it's like, "Oh my god, I'll never be able to..." And we think about all of the things that we wish we would have done that we now can't.

00:50:25 Courtney Brame: Or we block things out because we don't want to have to think about them and we don't want to experience the sadness or the rage or the full spectrum of emotions that are grief. Going back to what you said about this as an access point—you mentioned that the trespassing of your boundaries became an access point into your sexuality. A herpes diagnosis for many of us is a sexual trauma as it does shift and change our sexual identity. This is an access point of discovery, of reconnection. Despite how traumatizing or activating it might have been, if we're willing to go there, if we're willing to extract the usefulness of what it now means to live with herpes, we can come out on the other side of this.

00:51:26 Courtney Brame: But that can only happen if we are willing to move forward. A lot of us just kind of freeze. A lot of us want to fight it. A lot of us want to run away from it, but the thing is, having herpes, we got it. You can't run away from this because it's there. You can't fight it because it's too small. So now we're left with: we can freeze or we can move forward. That's my mission to teach people. It makes me excited. I light up when people come here and they talk about how active and happy and fulfilling their sex lives are because that's what people feel like they've lost.

00:52:26 Courtney Brame: They feel like they've lost their sex lives entirely, but the reality is that's not the case. It doesn't have to be the case unless we choose that for ourselves. And yeah, we got to be willing to possibly deal with—I don't even want to call it rejection anymore, but like a declining of the offer to move forward sexually with somebody. You make an offer and they say yes or no, and they accept it or they decline it. And that feels a lot more realistic than being rejected because in all actuality, we don't even know if that's the only thing that they were rejecting or saying no for.

Kiki Maree: I really love that. The declining of the offer. Just sort of as you were speaking, I remembered that I had BV for I would say 12 months, and I can imagine that there's a similarity there of the self-monitoring and hyper-vigilance.

00:53:35 Kiki Maree: I was always checking for a scent and really worried that my partner wasn't wanting to go down on me. There was so much shame around the smell. I didn't really have so many other symptoms, but that shame was there.

Courtney Brame: Hey, while you're here, can you speak about that and then transition into the work you do? Because you were mentioning the fluid and the checking.

Overcoming BV, Embracing Fluidity, and the Work of Yoniclicious

Kiki Maree: Yeah. So with bacterial vaginosis, it's something that is another access point into our body, getting us to understand and check our cervical fluid and that being a way to be intimately connected with our body. It is one of the STIs that does carry a lot of shame for women and vulva-havers because of how we're conditioned in our society to feel shame around our genitalia in general.

00:54:45 Kiki Maree: It took me a very long time to treat it. It was really difficult to treat. I had maybe two partners during that time until I met my husband now. And during that time, neither of the partners really cared. I would show them when it would smell different. I'd be like, "Smell it now. It smells different." And they'd be like, "Oh, wow. Yeah, it does." But that shame was always there. I was always seeking reassurance and trying to make sure I had a shower before. It definitely did impact my sexuality.

And then I met my husband who really loves stinky things! I think I got thrush at the same time as BV, and so there was a lot of fluids happening, and I was dancing a lot, wearing tight clothes and sweating. It got out of control. It was the worst that it had been when I met my current partner.

00:56:01 Kiki Maree: We were in a hammock tent and the smell was so strong. The whole hammock tent was just filled with it. And my partner was like, "Yes, it smells so good. Yes." And getting off on it so much. And I was like, "Oh, okay. Like who gives a f***?" I then was able to treat it and it went away and I was like, "Okay, actually I'm happy about that." But all of the shame and the monitoring, it was just out the window with the partner that was fully embracing and not giving a f***.

00:56:45 Kiki Maree: It was a pivotal moment for me. "Oh, this is what it feels like to have sex with someone that's fully embracing all of you regardless of what's going on." And I can imagine that that would be a really nice experience to have if you do have genital herpes as well. Being able to fully let go and be like, "F*** it, who cares? We're embraced exactly for who and how we are." I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Courtney Brame: Man, that's uh, damn. The first thing I was going to say is like I bet he was very disappointed when the smell went away! "Is it back? No?" Start looking up online like, "How do you give someone BV?" So I thought about more funny s*** than anything else.

00:57:47 Courtney Brame: But no, I think that is a very beautiful experience for y'all because again, it's communicative, right? And he learned something about himself and you learned something about him and yourself, right? When people are with each other, there's this desire to explore and expand and deepen the connection with whoever it is that you are intimately connected to by exploring the things that they like. You might not be into that thing, but it's like, "You know what, the fact that you like this, I'm actually kind of aroused by this and I want to give you that."

00:58:45 Courtney Brame: I have a lot of conversations with different people who do different things. I was surprised because I hadn't heard of this one specifically. But I know there's a phrase "bug chasers." There's people who want to have sex with people who have STIs, right? And that's different than what you were describing for you and your husband. But yeah, I don't kink shame. People do what they like and as long as everybody involved is okay with it and you're safe and you're not harming anybody and it's legal, that's between y'all.

00:59:33 Courtney Brame: And it's kind of similar as we think about herpes because there are people who are deathly afraid of passing this on. There are people who think that it's their sole mission in life and responsibility never to pass this on to somebody. But the reality is I've been way better equipped to handle this compared to the person who might have had sex with me knowing that they have it, who probably is like, "Oh, I had sex with that guy and I didn't tell him I have herpes."

Whoever that person is maybe thought to themselves, "I could never tell anyone about this. I don't ever want to put anyone through that." And then they had a moment of weakness, maybe a drunk night, where they just were like, "You know what? F*** it. Someone did this to me."

01:00:19 Courtney Brame: There's a number of things that people can think, but I'm not handling it the way that someone thinks that they would have handled it or that they handled it themselves. So, give people the choice. Let people love you. If you want to explore a relationship, let people do that and let yourself do that. Give yourself permission for that.

That was one of the things that you said, you mentioned permission earlier. I forget the context but I thought that that was beautifully said at the moment.

01:00:50 Kiki Maree: Finding people that are in the same situation as you. You are a permission giver to anyone listening to this podcast. It's like, "Oh my god, this person can have sex with this diagnosis. This person can talk about it openly. This person can love themselves." It's such a gift. It really is.

Courtney Brame: That is what you were saying. Thank you. I'm so happy you remembered. All right. We are close to time and I know you got to get out of here soon as well. We already did the "how can people connect with you," but I just want to leave you with, is there anything that you've wanted to cover in this space that you haven't had the opportunity to cover?

Free Resources for Body Image and Pelvic Health

01:01:43 Kiki Maree: I want to let everyone know that I do have a free resource that is all about body image neutrality. It's geared towards people who are feeling a lot of dysmorphia around their body, but I think it could be really useful for anyone that is self-surveying a lot in sex. I've got a bunch of tools in there for people to implement when having sex if they find themselves so in their head worrying about transmitting or what the other person's thinking, watching for every little micro movement and facial expression. Like I was when I had BV with other lovers.

01:02:30 Kiki Maree: Some really grounded ways to come back to the body because when we're self-surveying, we have finite attentional resources. If we're too busy thinking about all of these other things and not feeling our pleasure and being in our body and connected to our breath and the present moment, then we miss our arousal cues. Then arousal becomes more difficult and things like erectile disappointment can occur. It can be hard for women and vulva-havers to have engorgement and all of those things that are needed for delicious and successful sex. I wanted to have that as a little free resource for anyone that's feeling that their diagnosis is impacting their ability to drop into the moment in sex.

01:03:26 Kiki Maree: I also have a Yoni Love program for anyone that's feeling disconnected. A lot of my work is centered around working with the pelvis and working with women and vulva-havers with connecting to their pelvis, understanding their anatomy, understanding their arousal anatomy, and keeping connected to their pelvic diaphragm and pelvic health. This is something that can become a pretty big issue for a lot of people because of clenching and holding and tolerating pain in sex or just being bored in sex. There can be a lot of dysfunction in the pelvic diaphragm. I have a free program that's connecting into it, self-massaging, and understanding our body better.

01:04:36 Kiki Maree: I would love to share that with people who are feeling disconnected through their diagnosis to their genitals and their anatomy. That one is definitely more vulva-focused. I have those on offer if anyone's feeling that that could be of support.

Courtney Brame: Thank you so much for sharing and offering these resources. Let people know how they can connect with you one more time.

Kiki Maree: Best way is through Instagram, @yoniclicious or @kiki.maree.

Courtney Brame: All right. Is there anything else that you want to say or tie the episode with a bow?

01:05:27 Kiki Maree: I think just, my main intention in coming on here was to help reduce stigma and shame. If that is something that you're experiencing, find compassion for yourself. I think that's a really beautiful antidote for shame and to keep showing up for yourself and to know that you're worthy of love and pleasure and connection and intimacy, and that your diagnosis doesn't define who you are. It's a skin condition that you have and that's it.

Outro & Announcements

Courtney Brame: Thank you so much. All right, y'all. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like, rate, review, share, subscribe to this podcast, and also reach out to me and let me know you want to be a guest. I need more people. It would be nice to hear different experiences outside of my own because that's really all that's been happening these last several episodes. If you're somebody who feels like you're ready to share your experience and you want to be of service and help other people, that's the number one thing that I need.

01:06:50 Courtney Brame: 2027 is going to be amazing because I'm speaking this into existence now. We are having a herpes stigma conference. This will be a hybrid thing. It'll be in person in New York City. I just got to find a venue and I'm looking at the availability, but the date will be at the end of August of 2027. So, go ahead, start saving y'all money now because these are going to be ticket purchase things. That's going to be a big thing. And that's the reason that I'm not going to be doing any more of the expos or those kinds of events, because I want to prioritize preparing for that. All right. Till next time, stay present.

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