SPFPP 217: Belonging Series - Performative Blackness
Dr. Rob joins us in this series of Belonging as I just decided to name it. We discuss aspects of identity from a bit of a clinical perspective, in addition to my sharing of my experiences as I make out what Queerness means to me in relation to my Blackness. The title of Performative Blackness comes into place as a representation of MY Black experience, and is NOT to be assumed as every person of Blackness’ experience, so as you listen, please keep that in mind.
I mention that I do believe people sometimes forget I’m a Black man and that while I wish I could reject society’s expectations and stereotypes for what that means, I still present in this way which means no matter what you hope for me, there are certain survival mechanisms I have to implement in order to be considered nonthreatening. As someone who dates outside my race, I have to be mindful that my partners are aware of MY Blackness not being the same kind of experience they may have had with other partners who have Black skin. It’s different but the same in many ways. We speak more to this in the podcast episode.
In spaces of Blackness, there’s still the aspect of code switching (new term for me) where I have to be Black enough generically within spaces where my Black can be considered the kind that looks down on other kinds because of certain privileges I’ve benefit from such as dating outside my race, being college educated, an entrepreneur, having moved away from where I’m from.
Most of the SPFPP audience is cis-gendered mostly straight white women. Holidays with family look different for different reasons to the SPFPP audience and I know because of things that have been shared consistently. In my experience of being home for holidays and around family, there’s a layer of communication that in a way has to revert to speaking in a way that doesn’t appear too educated and smart for my family that' may be older or didn’t go to college. So a form of code switching has to organically occur so as not to offend or disrespect family. There’s this misconception that because I went to college, or date white girls, run my own business, or left my home city that I’m “too good for (insert family member title)". Something I didn’t speak to is this sort of trade off that comes with it given I also have herpes and it’s like something I know my family isn’t really comfortable with but may not understand. Like because I have herpes, I don’t have a family or Black partner, and that’s something I am working through processing.
I hope this podcast episode illustrates the importance of healthy dialogue around identities. This series is really vulnerable for me to speak to because it’s me putting myself out there not only to express myself but as a way of connecting with like-experienced people. I hope to encourage more of this kind of dialogue and be that bat signal for Black men that may have similar experiences. At the same time, I hope this helps those who don’t have shared identities with me necessarily but that this can assist them in finding their own ways to the healing for them. Thanks for making this space safe.
Transcription:
Something Positive for Positive People Episode 217: The Belonging Series - Performative Blackness
February 18, 2022
Courtney: If you haven't already, please like, rate, review, subscribe to the Something Positive for Positive People podcast. And if you have the means to do so and want to support our ongoing work, please leave us a donation. You can figure out the ways to do so by visiting W W W dot S P F P P dot org [www.spfp.org]. What you are supporting is our ongoing advocacy to combat H S V stigma from within. We want people who come here to be able to dissolve stigma within themselves and dissolve any internalized stigma so that they can go on to create allyship from within their respective communities starting within our community so that we can get to a place where people who receive a herpes disclosure from someone are able to be more receptive to it. And when people are diagnosed with H S V then they are already equipped with this new framework that directly challenges stigma so that they can move on. And of course, we're trying to get people back into therapy and connected to support resources. So, if you haven't already and you have the means to do so, please consider donating. Like how I did that early? Just in case y'all don't make it to the end of the episode, and now you got to hear the ad at the very beginning. Bam! Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. And as you have already gathered [chuckles], we're a 501c3 non-profit organization that supports people navigating herpes stigma by connecting them to mental health resources, and just community support if they need it. Today I'm here with Dr. Rob. We're continuing the series on navigating Queerness, Blackness, and manliness, or masculinity, depending on where we are in the conversation, depending on how I talk about it. The more that I speak to this intersection of identities--which you just gave me language for thank you [chuckles]--the more clear it becomes. So before I just dive into the graphic--because that'll be what's associated with this episode title--before I go into that, can you give me your intro, Dr. Rob? How long have you been practicing? Give me your letters behind your name and how long you've been practicing.
Dr. Rob: Sure, sure. Appreciate it. My name is Dr. Robert Campbell. I graduated with my Psy D in clinical psychology. This was back in 2020, so I'm still wet behind the ears, so to speak. I'm soon to be licensed as well, still waiting on the powers that be to give me the "knighting", so to speak. I passed the licensing exam and everything, so just waiting on that. But you know, I've been practicing and do training [indiscernible] for probably about five years or so. I've worked with a number of different people in a number of different settings. So, specifically, I like to say I'm more of a generalist right now. I work with anybody that's 18 plus, so mostly adults, and I've worked with a number of different settings. I'm coming to you by way of--well, I'm based in Philadelphia right now. But I did my graduate training in South Florida at Nova Southeastern University. And then through my training, I did a number of different placements. I did a few V As down there, The Veterans Administration hospitals. A couple of University Counseling Centers as well. And a specialty trauma clinic as well, dealing with a lot of people who endure physical abuse, sexual abuse, and things like that.
Courtney: Perfect. Thank you so much for that detailed intro. Now, the reason that I reached out to you, when you and I have been in contact over Instagram for a bit now, I was creating this triangle, the diagram that's associated with this podcast. And I had my straightness challenged in a way, and the way that my straightness was challenged, by someone who is part of the Queer community, made me have this thought. I don't think that this person--I think people forget that I'm Black--and how those three things sort of challenge one another in my experience. My Blackness, my manliness, and my proximity to Queerness are three things that directly challenge one another. And I was looking for potentially other Black men who can relate and when I went to your page, I saw the letters by your name and I was like, "Oh shit! You might be able to speak to this a little bit more from a clinical perspective, because I've spoken to a friend of mine one on one who has a shared experience with being a Black man and not, you know, the traditional version of whatever it means to be Black in the sense of, "Oh, you ain't Black, black." And as far as being manly, not a traditional Alpha hyper-masculine man, but also, not necessarily belonging in Queer spaces or feeling a sense of belonging because of his straightness. And I feel like that's kind of been with my experience is and in our conversation, he brought up Childish Gambino as an example--
Dr. Rob: Oh!
Courtney: Right? Yeah, or a role model of that. Go ahead.
Dr. Rob: It's wild when you say that, because Childish Gambino, one of my favorite artists, my dog is named Bino, so like, you know [laughs]. I am a stan! I saw that and my eyes lit up, but go on, my bad [laughs].
Courtney: No, no! That's, I mean, and that's how he was. When I define Queerness, I define Queerness in a way that, to me, it rejects the status quo, the expectations of labels on people. It's like, you are challenging what you're "supposed to do", quote-unquote. I used to think of it as [being] a member of the L G B T community. And then as I began to become an ally, I learned, "Okay, well, if you're Queer, you're just not straight." And for my most recent definition, of being connected to and being in Queer communities, people have [told me that] my politics are Queer; the fact that I'm actively attempting to dismantle stigma and challenge the status quo in how people view sex and how we have important communication discussions, how I practice non-monogamy. These are all things that are Queer. And so to me, it just never felt right, because, like, I'm straight. I can't be Queer, right? And in the creation of that diagram, I realized that those three identities are social constructs that have been projected onto me. And I thought that I needed to find a way to bring these things together in order to create a new label, but what is, in fact, happening is that through challenging what other people are telling me I should be, I'm finding that my masculinity is also inclusive to a healthy amount of femininity. My Blackness is a Black that doesn't have the historical or traditional values upheld by what people would say, the Black community. And then, my proximity to Queerness or Queerness, you know, however it's defined, would determine whether or not I belong in that community...it's how I relate. It's where my passion is, it's, at this point, where my career is. So, instead of me trying to bring all three of these things together, the piece in the middle, which was what I thought that needed to be, which is everything integrated, is actually at its core, just my own uniqueness. I have to get rid of those expectations that come with the labels of being a Black, straight, or Black, straight, Queer man, if you will, and recognize I'm just me. What I do does not define who I am. Who I am, is really just extended into my behaviors and acts. So, with that description here on Queerness, Blackness, and manliness, I want to take the conversation into really speaking about identity valid--identity, period. When I present these things to you--so, you had some stuff to say on our Instagram exchange. I don't want to take over. This intro was already way longer than it was supposed to be, and I would like to let you have some words on here. Otherwise, it's just me venting and thinking out loud. When I presented you with this, what were your thoughts? Let's start there.
Dr. Rob: Okay, I like that. So, I'm looking at the graphic right now myself, and I think it points to a number of different qualities when we think of identity. I think we focus on these three, the idea of sexual orientation, the idea of being masculine and feminine presenting, falling into their gender-based presentation. But then also race and ethnicity. There are those three labels that do interplay, of course, but I think I was also thinking, honestly that, I feel like it can be...honestly, lacking in a way too because there are a lot of different labels. One of the first things I thought about, I remember, I think we were doing a voice exchange and I thought about this. So, there's a model of identity that was developed by Dr. Pamela Hays, and I believe she's at Ohio State, or was it--oh no, at Ohio University. It's called the ADDRESSING model. It counts a lot of those three categories when it comes to building identity, but it also adds on other things...let me just put this picture up. It's, like, age and generation, disability status, whether or not you required a disability in your lifetime, or whether or not it's developmental; religion and spiritual orientation, socioeconomic status, indigenous heritage, whether or not you're born in the US versus [coming here] as an immigrant, national origins, where [someone] comes from, then also gender. So, that model I've really come to use, especially for understanding myself as an individual, as a working clinician, but then also how to identify while at work with my clients. So, I think when I say-- I'm not trying to like, "boo-boo" on this specific graphic--but I think...my first thought is that there's also a lot more to think about when it comes to building identity. I think when we look at these three, specifically, I think they do. Especially, like you mentioned, you had your masculinity challenges, is that what it was?
Courtney: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Rob: Yeah. I want to preface this whole conversation to you, I won't call myself a so-called expert. I've just worked with a lot of individuals within the gender spectrum, and then working with [people] on the sexual orientation spectrum as well. But I think based on what I've seen and heard, I'm surprised to hear that being challenged--I'm curious, in what way was that specifically?
Courtney: Ooooh, perfect. Good question. So, on my dating profile...I had "Queer-Friendly" on my profile. And there was a trans person that reached out and was like, "Hey, I realize that this bothered me, and it's been bothering me for a few days, but you have 'Queer-Friendly'...how would you feel if someone had 'Black Friendly' on their profile?" And I was like, "Well, two things: One, you see B L M or Black Lives Matter on people's profiles all the time, so it's technically there. But what it does for me is offer a sense of security and safety.” I don't know--as someone who does also date outside of my race--I don't know who's safe. I don't know who I can have certain conversations with, especially in just thumb swiping, right? I present as a masculine cis-gendered, heterosexual man, and I'm Black. And so with that, there are stereotypes of us being less educated in being able to speak to L G B T issues. And so that was where the conversation started. And it was like, "Well, you do all of this activism and advocacy alongside L G B T community work. Why aren't you Queer? Like, you are Queer, right?" So I was like, "Ehh, it doesn't feel right to me." And again, it just didn't feel right to me because I know that I'm heterosexual and it felt almost like my heterosexuality was being challenged whereas like, "I can't challenge you on your non-straightness, right? So here we go." And I think that a part of this was about me having to remind this person, "Hey, I'm also Black. This is different because my Blackness is something that has to be taken into consideration when I'm offering a sense of safety.” I'm already perceived as threatening, and I have to make myself less threatening, especially in the dating world, by being able to showcase some form of open-mindedness, if you will, rather than just being looked at however...someone may have their own preconceived notions about me based on what I look: skin color, my size and stature, and my presence in the room. So, to me presenting Queer-Friendly made sense. I'm not Queer in a sense where I can at least say, "Hey, I'm Queer." So, "Queer-Friendly" was how I went about that. And that's where this whole diagram became born, was just through that dialogue.
Dr. Rob: Okay. I hear that. All right. That's why I got a whole bunch of curiosity as to--because I'm thinking about [how] people can have valid emotions, but at the same time, it sounds like you're trying to illustrate yourself with an ally, and that's fine. And I think sometimes we get stuck in the verbage or the specifics of what terms we use. So, I wonder, the idea of the distinction between "Queer-Friendly versus "Queer ally", I'm wondering what is that potentially for this person? But I don't know where they've gone within cyberspace. Bless them for wherever they're at. I think this conversation actually brings up a lot of interesting layers because if we go around the diagram...if we started at the top at masculinity and how that interacts with the other two pieces. I'm thinking some people tend to think of masculinity and Blackness almost like hand in hand, right? Like the idea of [what] a Black man is supposed to be, you're supposed to fit in a certain box. You're supposed to be athletic, sexually aggressive. Or like, maybe not as intelligent sometimes too. It's funny, this is the first thing I'm thinking about is, like, football. I don't know if this is as much, but I know back in the day, people used to consider Black quarterbacks as less talented than white quarterbacks, because Black quarterbacks were maybe more athletic and they can like, you know, run. But they don't have that quote-unquote "football IQ", which is, you know, definitely incorrect. But we got a whole bunch of noble names. I'm thinking like, you know, Lamar Jackson, Russell Wilson, even my own boy Jalen Hurts, because I'm an Eagles fan. When it comes to some of those interactions, there's a lot of stereotypes when it comes to these things. And I think those are definitely very limiting. I think that's where a lot of this conversation is. It's the idea of calling out these limits and understanding, "All right, do we need these limits?" More often than not, from what I've gathered, at least, based on my own personal experience, and then like I said in my work with my clients, those limits are not really helpful.
Courtney: Yeah. That's a good concept that you just mentioned here about labels being limiting because I don't want my experience as a Black man limited. And by the definition of Queer being to challenge stigmas, stereotypes, my very existence in rejecting those labels puts me in the category of Queerness by that definition. So, when I'm rejecting these two labels of what it means to be a traditional Black man, and the whole point of Queerness is the rejection of the social labels, identities, and whatnot, then that puts me closer into that category of Queerness. But I still feel like, as a Black man, that's straight, I don't belong there. So it's a matter of looking out to see okay, well, where do I belong? And that's kind of where my head was starting to explode with this diagram. It's like, "Oh, I don't fit in here. I don't fit in here. I don't fit in here. What's my place?”
Dr. Rob: I feel like I've definitely felt the same way. Because in my personal experiences as a Black male, especially when it comes to...the L G B T Q space and touching on that piece. Like, I know...so, my background is, my heritage is Jamaican and it's relatively--not even relatively, it's significantly--homophobic. There's a lot, a lot of homophobia within Jamaican culture. I would like to think that things are improving over the last 5, 10 years, but it's tough. But I know growing up, for me, the idea of...being gay or Queer was bad, right? That was definitely, it was synonymous with that. But then, I've also grown up with the idea of like, "Okay, why is that bad? Like, that doesn't make sense. You know, you just love somebody [that's] the same gender, like, what's the deal there?" So, definitely the idea of not assigning--not expressing those homophobic views, then [that] automatically categorizes you. It's tough! It's tough to have that division there. But I think especially, I feel fortunate to have gone through so much education, it was a lot of experiences to point [out] that that type of thinking isn't really helpful for anybody involved.
Courtney: Yeah. I think you put it into words that I didn't have when you said like, you said Jamaican culture is very homophobic and I feel like that's how I grew up in my experience with Blackness is homophobic. I played sports, it wasn't cool to be gay, if you were a man who liked other men, then you had the potential of being outcast by your community of people that you rock with. Like, "You like playing football? All right, you better not be gay and like playing football because then the locker room is going to make it very uncomfortable for you, and you're not going to be able to continue to play football." So it's like your livelihood is threatened through expressions. Or like if you don't join in on "the making fun of the gay people"--and this was back then, we're talking about ten plus years ago--then you're like an ally and by proximity, then you're gay or you're part of that community and lumped in there.
Dr. Rob: Yeah, and it's wild, the idea of conflating. This is another thing I've had gripes with, especially that I've noticed happening more recently, especially in social media, where the idea of masculinity and sexual orientation being conflated. So, just because somebody is gay or lesbian or whatever, it doesn't mean that they're also the opposite gender or a different gender in this case. So for example...I remember there was blowing up on Twitter where, there was a young Black boy, no more than 5, 6, 7. He's playing around with a set of kitchen appliances. You know, like they have the little tiny kitchen? The video was of him, like, "chef-ing" it up and everything. You would see him washing dishes but he was also, like, stirring the pot. It was great! It looked cool. It was all stainless steel, it was nice! But then apparently there was this dialogue like, "Oh, get him out the kitchen, why'd you get him that? Blah, blah, blah." Like, I'm sorry, my man can't just be out here [laughs] just trying to pretend to cook? Come on, now! How does the idea of a boy--someone who is masculine presenting--them being in the kitchen, which I guess you could say is a traditionally feminine thing, which I do also want challenge because like, you know, all the great chefs are men, but that's a whole other thing. But why is it that him playing with that at a young age, why does that all of a sudden make him attracted to men? That doesn't make any sense. So I think, in a way, I think like the idea of homophobia, especially in the Black community has been...it's definitely unfortunate and I can remember...I've seen where parts of it come from. I've heard parts of it come from like, they can be conspiracy theories or some people say, "Oh, the white man wants Black people to be gay to stop population control", or whatever the fuck, right? Can I curse on here, by the way? I don't know if I'm--
Courtney: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said "boo-boo" earlier, and I was like, "What?" [laughs]
Dr. Rob: [laughs] Oh yeah! My fault, my fault [chuckles]. But yeah, so there's that piece, but then also like this: some of it is also rooted in slavery. You know, where Black men were raped and they called it "buck breaking" to break a man's spirit. So that idea. And also Christianity is involved there too. That also plays a part in there too, where some of the homophobia is really especially strong in the Black community. I don't think it's exclusive to the Black community, but it's definitely strong in our community.
Courtney: Man. When you were speaking, it made me think about, you know, like we are our... [sighs] part of our community because it's Black communities with an S. It's not just one overarching version of Blackness, but--
Dr. Rob: That's true.
Courtney: --the expression of Blackness from like, the Lil Boosie camp, who has the underage kid getting twerked on by an older woman, or...who was it? Someone ha--oh, no, that was Kodak Black. That was Kodak Black that had the picture or video of this grown woman twerking on his kid! Like, that's a kid! And then with Lil Boosie, talking about like, "Yeah, I had my underage kid--" There's an echo for some reason, what happened...
Dr. Rob: There might be. Let me see what I can do.
Courtney: What about now?
Dr. Rob: ...recent echo your microphone is picking up from the sound from the speakers. Let me throw my headphones down and then maybe that can help.
Courtney: Oh! We should be good.
Dr. Rob: It's good now? Okay.
Courtney: All right. And then with Lil Boosie having an older woman have sex with his kid. Again, this is a kid! So--
Dr. Rob: Wait, that actually happened?
Courtney: That, ah, yes!
Dr. Rob: Oh Jesus.
Courtney: That is a story that circulated. The homophobia is so real that it's prioritizing pedophilia, if you will. We're talking about grown women who are having sex with younger--and because they're boys, I guess, it's more “okay” than if it wasn't. Because it's that kind of shit that allows for R Kelly, or people like R Kelly, to have gotten away with what he's gotten away with for years, and people who have uplifted, supported this kind of Blackness or community or Black men, in the case of R Kelly, perpetuating this kind of shit. And it's like, when are we going to get over this? When are we going to collectively get through this? And I think that part of getting through this is being able to speak to these varying identities, and while yeah, it's only three, but being able to speak up about this kind of stuff is encouraging, this sense of acceptance to being different and not conforming to,
"Oh, well, this is just the way it always has been. Well y'all know Robert, Robert loves them young girls. You know Boosie, Boosie ain't gonna let his kids grow up and be gay." We can't--I can't keep letting that shit just happen.
Dr. Rob: Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you, I hear you. I think...it's interesting, there's a couple of directions my head goes when we're talking about this part because it's like, part of me is wondering okay, why is this perpetuated? Because I think there's also this idea that being hyper-masculine is being strong. Right? And I think there's been a lot of trauma within the--I like the fact that you mentioned that there's "Black communities", like with an S, because we have people, all in one, the diaspora so to speak, whether it be from, I believe that it was called Foundational Black; the people who are born and raised with a number of different generations within the US, descended from slaves. But then also descendants directly from Africa, immigrants from Africa over the past couple years, or past couple generations, rather. And then [people] coming from the Caribbean as well. So there's a lot of different parts of that diasporas, so I appreciate you mentioning that. But I think across that, there's been this idea that you need to be strong. And I think that's been, as a part of being--because Blackness is synonymous with...experiencing a lot of trauma. I mean we've seen that on our screens, very much so, over the past--especially since the George Floyd murder way back in 2020 now, it's almost two years now. So the idea of being strong is important among all our experiences and also it's like, you know, racism, prejudice, and societal pressure. It's important to do those things, but then also, with that idea of being strong, also, once again limits us towards not being able to have variants in our identities, pretty much. So, the idea of like, "Oh, if you're...you have to be a masculine, Black, straight man. Nothing else." If you vary from that picture, then you know, there's something quote-unquote "wrong with you." And that sucks! Just to put it plainly, it's just not good.
Courtney: Yeah. I just had to look it up because there was uncertainty in my voice, when I mentioned the Lil Boosie thing. He said--
Dr. Rob: Word.
Courtney: --it was oral sex. But a grown woman sucked off a--
Dr. Rob: I mean--
Courtney:--12, 13 year old. Just for accuracy of the story I just pulled it up-- Dr. Rob: Yeah, you don't want Boosie coming after you, like, "Hey!"
Courtney: Right! "Heyyyy!!" [laughs]
Dr. Rob: Oh my god [chuckles].
Courtney: Speaking to, like, the performative--let's call it that: performative Blackness, performative masculinity. Let's talk to that, and...being hyper straight. I remember--I wish that he would have let me have this interview. I interviewed someone who is a gay Black man and he was speaking very well to his experiences of performing straightness, being Black and performing straightness. As someone who is bisexual, he's out of the traditional sense of masculinity, and he's more Queer. So you got this Black homosexual man, and I think that we were on the road to getting somewhere in this conversation that took place in early 2020. But he didn't feel comfortable with the vulnerability that came with this dialogue. So now this also speaks to Blackness and masculinity, when we speak vulnerability. How tough it is, or how not normalized it is for us to express emotions and feelings to where it's like, "Yeah, you know, we're getting together, we're having this podcast episode, it's for a good reason." And it's like, "Ah, you know what, I'm not comfortable with that." Even to say that is a vulnerable thing! But how vulnerable is it to have the conversation, and, again, directly challenging the idea of what it means to be a Black man. And we're two black men, we were two black men in the room. The only difference was, that I identify as straight and he identified as gay. He has a strong sense of allyship in and with the L G B T community, I show up as an ally. We, mostly in our experience, share Blackness in a sense of not being what it traditionally means to be Black, by way of having our--even just being in the same room together, having dialogue. If someone were to watch that, from the time that I grew up, where I grew up, then by proximity either he ain't really gay or I'm not straight.
Dr. Rob: Oh man, yes, that's tragic [chuckles] to come to that conclusion. God, that's so interesting. The mention that the topic is specifically the idea of performative Blackness. Right? What is, I guess, based on that, what does that mean? Because I'm curious as to what that even would mean.
Courtney: Man, all right. So, as someone who dates outside of my race--oooh, this is a great example. If I'm dating a white girl who dates black dudes, and it's expected that I'm going to be a certain way. This is like a great example. If we're just texting and I'm like--I text in complete fucking sentences. I'm educated, I'm grown, I'm not going to text you the letter "u", the letter "r" or use the wrong "your" or the wrong "to" or the wrong "there". And I see the performative hipness sometimes and that's always been a red flag to me. It's like, "Ohh, this is how you talk because you think this is how I talk."
Dr. Rob: Ohhh, I see what you're saying.
Courtney: You know what I mean? And so, I've seen this with--primarily in St. Louis--white women who only date black dudes, and that's how they interact or that's how they talk because they expect me to talk like that. And even in spaces with my family, when I say performative Blackness, I can point to examples there. When they sent me off to college to learn how to speak well and all that shit, and then I come back home speaking well and all that shit and they're like, "Hey, get out of here using them big ass words!"
Dr. Rob: Yeah, yeah.
Courtney: So, like, now I've got to dumb it down, you know for their comfort, to be able to sit in the kitchen with my cousins and uncles and aunts who didn't go to school or you know, who didn't have that education and now they looking at me like I'm, "Oh, you think you better than us." And I have to play that down in order to be in the room with them. So I, like, mix up hot talk--code-switching. Oh, code-switching! Damn, that's it.
Dr. Rob: There you go, oh yeah! No, no, no, I feel that. Yeah, that's what I was thinking, yeah. All right. I appreciate that context because--so this idea of performative Blackness, or that code-switching among our community. I'll touch on the one where you were [talking about] the white women, or maybe not Black, using that I think, for a split second, I think like, that's just...[sighs] I think from what I've seen and what I've gathered, I think that sometimes, especially our white, individual white allies, they may try to adopt that performative Blackness in efforts to connect, and it just falls flat. So flat [laughs]. Especially dating situations, because I have also dated interracially in my past. Technically I still am right now. And there's a difference between when it's genuine. Because I have no problem with that, somebody white that also grew up in a predominately Black household or in a predominantly Black neighborhood and then comes through with the vernacular. I'm like, "All right, bet. I see you're about the culture." But, you know, if it's like, you know that they don't have this background, you know--I feel like it's not even something you have to really truly even try to suss out. You just know. You just know whether or not it's genuine. So, like that's--hmm, just toss that to the side [laughs]. So like, the one that's more, I think, that's more pertinent and relevant to us is the idea of that code-switching among our family, when it comes to that idea of sounding Black or acting Black in certain ways. Oh, my god, I can count so many experiences that I've had. Same situation. I come from, like a relatively--not relatively, I think a well-educated family. And my mom's always talks about speaking the Queen's English, things like that, which is [laughs]--I always thought that was funny. So that's always been a part of me. But then I've also been questioned, "Oh, you don't sound Black," or like...I remember, there'd be times in high school I'd say something, like relatively like, not in broken English in some way. And like some white boy would be like, "Oh, I'm Black like you because I say it like this." And I'm like, "...Excuse you? [laughs] That don't make no sense." So I definitely--the term being thrown around, like being an Oreo?
Courtney: Yeahh.
Dr. Rob: Yes, that's a big one, like Black on the outside, white on the inside. Like...that don't make no sense. It's kind of like that colonized idea of education equals whiteness. But it doesn't have to be.
Courtney: Yup.
Dr. Rob: On the other side, too, if you kind of flip it, at the same time, using maybe more broken English doesn't necessarily mean that they're uneducated. In certain aspects, in certain aspects. I say that with like a little Asterix there. But I think it's painful when you have to be around your people, and then they look at you funny because you just say big words, certain words and they kind of look at you sideways. So I don't like code-switching, definitely not, of course, I do it. Like, I've done it, almost on the daily, depending on who I'm talking to. But, I think that's just another adaptation of just what it is to be Black in America because we need to conform to what the majority is and what the majority sounds like. At the same time, there's also this idea that we don't want to distance ourselves too much from our group. You know, we got to still get back into and use some of that, they call it African--I want to actually, I just learned this acronym the other day: A A V E. For African American Vernacular English. I didn't realize that was a specific thing. I think there's another like--because I'm on social media--a lot of people were talking about the way people use words, like: the math isn't mathing. Or like it's giving...something [laughs]. Kind of like saying those type of words and it's just slang! But it definitely has roots, of course, in Black culture. So I find it fascinating the idea of how much language impacts the way we're perceived among different groups too. So, I think you can also look at code-switching in a way that it's resilience too. We're able to blend in and adapt to our circumstances.
Courtney: Yes, it's survival then. When we speak to performative Blackness, like, I need to be Black enough to fit into my home and family life, but I need to dial down my Blackness in order to not be threatening in predominantly non-Black spaces. That's what it sounded like to me. Is that kind of in the ballpark?
Dr. Rob: Yeah, exactly.
Courtney: All right. What else is there to speak to in regards to this? So I guess I'm learning, in my own experience that, what it means for my Blackness--we talked about Childish Gambino earlier, like that is...when I look up the word Queer, the definitions were "questioning" or "weird". And it was like damn, by that definition, me being Black and I like Childish Gambino's music and he's a weird person, and he's an artist and he doesn't go along with the grain. He has carved his own path. Is that what Queerness is? And in that sense, I'm like, "Hell yeah! I want to be like Childish Gambino. That's my role model!” And, at least as far as I know, that's a straight Black man who does things differently. Right? So in that sense, is my sense of belonging with the outcasts who aren't necessarily fitting into the label of Queerness, which appears to be a place for people who don't have a home in labels?
Dr. Rob: Mmm-hmm. That's interesting. I feel like you bring up the idea of belonging. Right? And so, I'm thinking about, there's a couple of layers to this because I'm thinking like, "All right, why are we looking at belonging? Because like, you know, that's important for us. Throw out all these these qualifiers, like, race, gender, age, whatever. Belonging is important to us. That's one of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, being able to belong to a certain group, is important for us. And also too, in terms of evolution, same way. If we were kicked out the tribe, left out in the cold, you either freeze to death or you get eaten by a saber-toothed tiger. That's just how it is. So we need to belong to a certain group. I think in this day and age, though, like...it's [sighs]. I've always heard this, the idea of, like they say America's a melting pot, so to speak. And I used to enjoy that perspective. But at the same time, I remember how there was a critique about this and like, "Oh, that means we're homogenous, everybody looks the same." That's not the case. And I think I like being more of like, from what I've heard, the idea of being almost like a salad bowl. So like, you know, everybody's mixed and matched. You know, like everybody has their own forms, their own flavors and shapes, and sizes. But you know, we're still able to be one harmonious unit. I think, you know, now in today's day and age, especially just the way political divides have been drawn, this would be a hard hill to climb to get to something like that to complete harmony, but I think it's important to belong in some way, shape, or form. I'm hoping that...I think when it comes to that, I think it's important to point out groups that are welcoming of you, despite any sort of labels that are on us. For example, for me, myself, I noticed like the people around me...I have good people I know, like people from my training program of all different races and gender orientations, and sexual orientations too. I know in my private practice right now, we're in a group practice, and it's definitely a lot of varying identities too, which has been definitely really impactful for me. I've really enjoyed coming up, especially because I'm in an area in Philadelphia that's very diverse, which is cool to see. I think being able to surround yourself with you know, not even like similar labeled people, but also similar minded people. So that value, the idea of diversity and inclusion.
Courtney: Ahh, okay, so what I'm hearing in that is, the values of your social circles, your communities ought to be something taken into consideration when it comes to belonging. It's not exclusively about, "Oh, you know, that group of Black dudes over there and I'm a Black dude, let me go along with them; Oh, that's a men's room. I'm a man let me go there.; or this is a Queer community and I wear rainbow colors, so let me go over there." So, it's not superficial in any way, shape, or form. It's about the core values that are demonstrated in the expression of the community. So in that sense, I would belong in the Queer spaces because I'm directly, actively disrupting stigma when it comes to sexual health and communication. I belong in a men's group because I value integrity and the act of getting things done and contributing to communities and spaces that I'm in and solving problems. I belong in Black spaces because I value our shit, social justice and our rights and our culture and just what we've contributed, in a sense, to society from our art forms and expressions.
Dr. Rob: Hell yeah, oh my god, I got so excited when you were saying all that. Yeah, like you can belong in all these spaces because the values match up and it doesn't necessarily have to be the labels. The way you said that was fantastic. Because it's funny, as you said that too, I remember there was an exercise I did in high school. I think it was a biology class, I don't know how this fit into biology class, but like, the teacher had us stand up, I think it was like maybe like 20-something of us. They had us all stand up and then grouped based on how similar you think you are. And I remember I was around some close friends and I believe one was from Guyana, and a couple of them were white. And I get around them, you know, we were like the nerds, so to speak. But then I remember talking to them, you know, we're just talking about regular stuff. And then I remember hearing snickering from behind me. I'm like, "What's going on?" And I turn around and I see all the black kids and they're like, "Yo, how come you didn't come over here, man?" and I'm like, "I don't know! Maybe I like it over here talking about Pokemon, I don't know what to tell you [chuckles]. So, like, the idea of organizing ourselves based on these types of labels I think is very limiting. I've noticed that myself too. Because, like, I find myself, I can mix and match in a lot of different spaces. I'm definitely--I've mentioned sports here a couple times already--I'm a football fan and a couple of sports. But I'm also a fan of eSports, so, this is professional video games. And some people that would go to an eSports event wouldn't go to a regular football event. You know, vice versa, but I can mix and match there. Or the idea of being an L G B T Q plus Allyship space, being able to blend in there, that might send off alarm bells to some other people who are quote-unquote "hyper-masculine." But at the same time, I am proud of my masculine identity, presenting as masculine. But at the same time, I'm also proud of being an L G B T Q plus ally. I remember I pulled up the ADDRESSING model earlier. That's why I like being able to also look at other parts of identity because like, how old am I and how am I able to connect with people from my generation versus Gen Z versus Gen X versus boomers? My religion and how much--because I identify as Christian and I'm able to work with people who are Christian, who aren't Christian, who are maybe secular, or who maybe have a different belief set. The idea of--and identity is also not just those qualities too, but even things like where we are from regionally; from the north, from the south. What part of the city are you in, what are you into? There's culture in everything. So it's I think, being able to--with that, I've noticed I've been fortunate to be able to blend in, in a lot of different pieces, a lot of different areas rather than different communities within my area, then also from where I've previously moved from. So, I'm definitely fortunate in those aspects, but I think I would encourage anybody, like I would encourage you and anybody that's listening to do the same, be able to understand your value set and be able to create a community based on that as opposed to these labels.
Courtney: Oooh, thank you for sharing that too, because it brings out geography and what's in your proximity, what's available and accessible to you. So I am now in Portland, Oregon, and I'm surrounded by white people. What's that Bruce Willis movie where the kid's like, "I see dead people."
Dr. Rob: More power to you! [laughs]
Courtney: I'm over here like, "I see white people!" [laughs]
Dr. Rob: [laughs] The Sixth Sense. That'd be The Sixth Sense, yeah.
Courtney: Yeah, so that to me, in proximity, my Blackness is directly challenged because I'm surrounded by white people shit, right? Because I never ate sushi before, I started dating outside my race, and, like, I realized what I was missing out on! Like, I never listened to like--ooooh, Glass Animals. I fucking love Glass Animals. That is not--exactly, yeah, you shrugging! You don't know who Glass Animals is! They're a band and they--that song "Heat Waves", and you probably heard the song "Heat Waves" because it just came on, it's like poppy or something. But, like, certain styles of music, foods, and activities. Like going hiking, like Black people...I've not hiked. I've not done yoga. And these were all things introduced to me because I was willing to step into uncharted territory for myself. While my Blackness directly challenges doing white people shit, it's through that that I've been able to like disengage from solely identifying with any of the other aspects of my being that would keep me limited, like the limitations of what labels are. So now, you know, I'm not just a Black, straight dude who is an ally to Queer people or who occupies Queer spaces. I'm also all of those things. And I'm in Portland, Oregon, surrounded by more and more white people shit, so I need to, for myself, rather than being looked at like, "Oh, you know, Black people don't swim, Black people don't hike, Black people don't rock climb, or any of that stuff, or do Yoga. You know, I feel--taking it back full circle to the beginning--my demonstration of you know...I want you to ask me, like, invite me into conversation that allows for me to demonstrate my values, the things that you can't look at me and just assume. So, I want to challenge people's assumptions, and it seemed to me, in that moment, that expressing Queer friendliness, was a way of doing so. Because to me it's more than allyship. A lot of my friends are part of the L G B T community that I spend most of my time with. A lot of the people that I speak to on my podcast, while most of them are cis-gendered, white, mostly straight women, there are a lot of Queer people that I speak with on a regular basis about it as well. So, it's more ingrained in me than allyship. I feel closer than an ally, like a fucking elbow bump. I feel like I'm there, I'm shaking hands, I'm politicking for the group in the terms of sexuality and sexual health and where my work intersects. So, I don't know where I was closing that out at, but when you mentioned proximity or geography, that's what came to mind, which was like, what are you surrounded by? What's by you? You know, what are you being exposed to? And for a lot of these people, I'm the first Black dude that they could talk to about social justice issues, you know? And I argue sometimes they forget I'm Black, people will forget that and cross certain boundaries or, you know, "not see color" if you will, or put people in situations that are potentially harmful and not safe. So, I have to constantly perform in a way to let you know, to someone who may not be Black, "Hey, I'm safe. I'm safe." You know, and me...like, wearing masks does not help! Because now I can't just smile and be like, "Hey, look at me! I'm safe! I'm smiling! I'm non-threatening!" Now I got a mask on and it's like, you don't know what the fuck my face is doing right? [chuckles] So, even that in a way is contributing to potential harm and my versatility and adaptations of having to come off as non-threatening. So saying Queer-Friendly was a way of being non-threatening, if you will. So that closes that out there.
Dr. Rob: I like the way you explained that, too. Because it's not just like an allyship where it does sound very clinical, very, like, "Oh, we're just politicking and everything." But you know, like, those are your friends, those are people that are close to you. So, saying Queer-Friendly, that makes sense for you. And I think sometimes, I think labels and titles and things like that are important to a degree because that's just how our brain makes sense of things. But like, at the same time, it's important to look past those words and look past those labels. Because I'm thinking, I'm back up on getting hung up on the idea of using Queer-Friendly versus Queer ally. It's interesting to say the least, but like, I think also--I just drew a blank [chuckles].
Courtney: [laughs]
Dr. Rob: I don't know where I was going myself, so I'm just going to hand it back to you.
Courtney: [laughs] Naw, it's all good! So, just concluding this, man, I think that what we touched on here is a good stopping point between performative-- I mean, performative belonging is what I would say, because it's not performative Blackness, it's not performative manliness, it's looking for a place that you belong in, and recognizing it to be something that you know, perhaps is performative, according to society's expectations. Actively choosing not to perform manliness, Blackness, Queerness, you know, for the sake of meeting the expectations that are attached to those labels, which have their limitations, perhaps that's where the healing takes place. When you're able to defy those things and go through your own trial and error of identifying yourself and what is true to your core through those intangible aspects of yourself, your identity, what you like, what you don't like, and being willing and able to express that, then we come to realize that we're all unique, we all don't belong in a way but we're looking for places to belong. And sometimes it has to be performative, you know, for safety reasons, or for us to figure out where we do and don't belong, and then we can go there and just be. Because that's really what it's about.
Dr. Rob: Yeah, most definitely. I like the idea of focusing on belongingness because, it's sad sometimes these labels can look to divide us in certain ways, and I think not necessarily in a "we don't see color" type of thing or like "these differences don't matter" because they do. We realize that's just who we are. At the same time that doesn't necessarily mean we can't connect. And I think, you know, what we do all experience--I think now we're talking about less of these labels and more of the human condition, right? We all have certain emotions. We all feel happiness, sadness, anger, disgust, shame, guilt, love, things like that. We all have those emotions, no matter what type of--no matter who we love, no matter where you were born, no matter what language you speak, no matter what skin tone. So, you're all going to feel these emotions in some way, shape or form. So, I think if we can connect from that and then start connecting on even other pieces too, just like based on culture, based on things that we love. So, for me, I love anything nerdy! So, like, video games, anime, especially--any people that connect with that, like those are my people. No matter what, no matter what you do, who you are, if you like stuff like that, I'm into it.
Courtney: You watching Demon Slayer?
Dr. Rob: Say that again?
Courtney: You watching Demon Slayer?
Dr. Rob: Oh! You know it's funny, I haven't caught up yet! I started the first episode, but then I was like, it was like when the first episode came out. It was a little slower there--
Courtney: Watch it. Watch it.
Dr. Rob: I was watching Black Clover.
Courtney: [shrieks excitedly] Oh, just! All right, we're going to nerd out after this. Let me go ahead and close this out. Is there anything else--
Dr. Rob: [laughs]
Courtney: --that you want to leave us with before I let you go?
Dr. Rob: Yeah, so, let me see. I don't have--I know there's a part of me that wants to pull for something bright and inspirational, I think we said enough here. I just appreciate--thank you Courtney for bringing me on here. I just slid in your D Ms, like, "Yo, I'm available whenever you want. What's happening?" [laughs]
Courtney: Yeah!
Dr. Rob: So, I appreciate that and I think if there's any questions, I can always, if anybody wants to reach out to me specifically, I can throw you a link to my LinkedIn. I can also throw you my email as well. If there's any professional inquiries or anything, if anybody wants to reach out and ask any questions about what I've said today. I can always do that too. Just thank you for having me. It's really cool.
Courtney: Perfect, yeah. Thank you. Thanks for being here. I really appreciate it. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People with Dr. Rob. Please like, rate, review, subscribe to, share, and donate to this non-profit slash podcast. If you like what you're hearing in this series, please reach out. Let's get some dialogue going! I know that these few episodes that centered around Queerness, Blackness and manliness, or I guess we can say gender identity because I would like to also be able to speak with people who identify as women about these topics as well. Then reach out, let's connect, let's touch base. I want to have this discussion because the more that I speak to it, the more people I'm welcoming in who just don't have language. Even as we talk through it, I'm sure you probably heard something that made you cringe if you're someone who's in a Queer space, or if you're someone who's white or if you're someone who's Black and listening to this, something might have set you off or turned you off. Join the conversation! Correct us! Let's help us get down the right path of being able to connect with one another. All right? Till next time--I can be found on Instagram, Twitter, Tumblr, and Reddit at H on my chest [@honmychest]--stay sex-positive.
