SPFPP 230: The Illusion of Choice Part 1
We didn’t get to the topic I wanted to discuss AT ALL about being a former athlete but I promise this is worth the listen. Our guest, Bri, discusses having moved forward with a partner who disclosed to her, they moved forward with intimacy and immediately from that ‘session’, she had her first outbreak. We talk about the emotional labor of supporting a partner through their diagnosis and symptoms, whether or not this was intentional, weaponizing herpes as a means of ‘trapping’ a partner, and how cis-het men navigate the emotional aspect of herpes stigma vs cis-het women.
Part 2 is where we’ll get into concluding Bri’s story, and hopefully get to go into the bit about being a former athlete. So for ya’ll wondering how the abusive relationship ended, stay tuned. Oh Trigger warning on this one…. abuse. But we talk about identifying abuse here too.
Transcription
Something Positive for Positive People Episode 230: The Illusion of Choice Part 1 May 13, 2022
Courtney: Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non-profit organization that supports people navigating S T I stigma and sexual health communication in general. I am here today with Bri. Bri, How old are you?
Bri: I am 31.
Courtney: All right. And something interesting about you is that you, too, are a former athlete and we've had an ongoing rapport with one another. And we speak about having been former athletes, and not necessarily 100 percent of the time how that relates to herpes, but how that relates to our identities. And one of the things that I speak to on this podcast often is this aspect of identity validation, and the importance of being able to validate who we think we are, or who we know ourselves to be in a variety of ways, really. And we talked about going from being an athlete to not being an athlete, and how--I can't remember exactly how that conversation went but speaking to that, and how we manage stressful events and life in itself at this point. I find that there are some very useful nuggets there and being able to connect the dots for people who have herpes, also. You have herpes, right?
Bri: Yes.
Courtney: Okay. So, speaking to that. How long ago were you diagnosed?
Bri: I was diagnosed in--right as the pandemic hit full swing. So, in March 2020. It was a fun time because I remember, I had to take some time off of work because it was not the greatest first outbreak. And the worst part is the co-workers coming back to me like, "Do you think it was COVID?" And I was just like, "Definitely wasn't COVID." But whatever [laughs] you want to call it for right now because I'm not going to open up to my colleagues [laughs] on that. But yeah, so March 2020. Gosh, it's been just about--yeah, two years.
Courtney: Oh wow. And what were the symptoms that you had for your first outbreak? You said that this was not the best first outbreak? [chuckles]
Bri: No [chuckles]. So I think what made it worse is that I originally went to urgent care because it was over the weekend. I realized something was not right, but it wasn't looking like a--obviously you Google, and you're looking at what a H S V two genital outbreak looks like. And for me, it did not look like that. And then I went to urgent care, and--obviously, they didn't do all the testing or anything--but the guy just came in, looked, did some kind of swab, and was just like, "Oh yeah, it's definitely from you having a--like a razor burn mixed in with a bacterial infection." And I was just like, "Are you sure?" Because at the time, I was seeing someone who had H S V two. And he's like, "No, no, no. For sure. This is just--just take this antibiotic and it should heal up. I don't see this as being herpes at all." And I was like, "All right, cool." So I got a nice little false sense of security with that. Luckily, I had an O B G Y N appointment about two weeks later, but obviously, it just got worse from there and the antibiotics don't really do much. And then I went to my O B G Y N and that's when they did the swab, and pretty much determined that I did have H S V and then got the right antivirals medication. So I think that's what kind of caused my first outbreak to be even a little bit rougher because I got started on medication that was not meant to help with the actual herpes outbreak.
Courtney: That's what I was going to ask too. Antibiotics are for bacteria, and antivirals are for viruses?
Bri: Correct.
Courtney: Okay, yeah. And again, I'm not a doctor.
Bri: [chuckles]
Courtney: I say that plenty of times throughout the course [chuckles] of this podcast. But that was just something that popped up into my mind. So your symptoms were significantly worse because for so long, you were not only not treating it, but you were treating something that just wasn't there. I can't believe your doctor--
Bri: Well, it was an urgent care.
Courtney: Oh, okay.
Bri: [laughs]
Courtney: Well, I can't believe the urgent care practitioner was just--
Bri: And I grilled him! I wasn't like--I know the situation I'm in. I know this is a possibility. The way I presented it, it pretty much looked like a razor burn. It looked like I just had--something was going on, but it wasn't like clusters of blisters or anything. It just looked like it was just very irritated. So either it was very at the start or--I don't know. But he was determined [that] this is definitely not herpes, so I was like, "Cool." Which then [laughs] that's a fun, emotional rollercoaster; then to go two weeks later and my O B G Y N I've known since I first started going ever, was just like, "Yeah, I definitely think it is." [laughs]
Courtney: Let's talk about even that. In healthcare, I don't know that any healthcare professional should be speaking in definitives until they get lab results back. For him to have said [that] this is definitely not herpes makes me think of someone that I've been providing support to lately who is really struggling with getting definitive answers from any of her health care team, basically. She has a team of people that she's seeking answers from and she's also suicidal. She's experienced suicide ideation. And everyone went from, "Oh, it might be herpes" to now like, "Oh, it's definitely not herpes. You don't have to worry about that." And while I get that it's essentially better to tell the person who's ready to kill themselves if they have herpes to be like, "Oh, no, it's definitely not herpes, don't kill yourself." On the other hand, that's not a real answer. That's not the reality, and you can't say that. So part of what we're doing at Something Positive for Positive People is working to begin empowering healthcare professionals with anti-stigmatizing approaches to health care. And what I mean by that is we see stigma as prevalent as it is, and it shows up in different ways and this has been one of them where someone in the healthcare field tells you, "It's definitely not herpes." As if like, "Oh, no, I don't want to deal with those emotions that you're going to have if this is herpes, so let's get you up out of here." Right? So what we need are providers who are and can be equipped with tools, resources, and education to comfortably speak to something as stigmatizing as herpes, as S T Is, as sex in general, and be able to deliver a reasonable quality of care that is identity-affirming, that is sex-positive, that is anti-stigmatizing, that is also trauma-informed and harm reductive because how much harm is being done in your being dismissed at that moment? Only for you to go on two more weeks, have symptoms, have an outbreak, have this intense pain that's not getting any better. And also, you're treating something that doesn't exist. It was almost like he was just dismissing it in order to kill time to not have to deal with it.
Bri: Yeah, no, it's definitely--I flip flop. I don't think they're trying to do it [with] any malicious intent, but I understand. Like, if you--from looking at what my initial outbreak looked like, it was not a textbook simple [case of], "This is obviously a cluster of blisters, and yeah, it's probably herpes." It didn't look like that. I'm not saying I'm trying to give a person who is actually a doctor an out because [chuckles] he should know better or be willing to test especially after I said, "Yeah, hey, my partner has H S V two." But the other side of me always thinks--like, you just mentioned before, the guy was just like--I picture the guy [chuckles] just being like, "Just tell her she doesn't, it's not that. Just get her out of the office. I don't want to deal with her having a meltdown [chuckles] in the office." I thought I went in with a pretty cool head, but yeah, I don't know what the intentions were. So my first outbreak I felt like went on a lot longer than it should have, and that's why it was just really painful in the beginning. And then, of course, the pandemic hit. So, getting into the doctor's appointment, wearing a mask, everyone's very stressed out, and then getting this new diagnosis was just a fun time [laughs].
Courtney: So you mentioned that your partner had herpes already and that you knew that this might be herpes. Can you speak a little more to that?
Bri: So yeah, this one was a bit interesting. And I know I brought it up in support groups. I am seeking online therapy. And it kind of stumps people on this and this is what I've been trying to work through because it really affected my trust issues. I had the oddity of--I hear a lot of people mention how, like people--like, they usually get it without knowing who gave it to them or the person didn't disclose or whatever it might be, which is awful in that sense. But my partner actually disclosed to me that he did have H S V two and then after the first time we were intimate...a week and a half later, boom! Showing symptoms and having all this. Fast forward a couple of months later, and I was like, "Well, it was just bad luck [chuckles]." Like, I mean, we knew it was a risk. It's always some kind of risk no matter how many times you have sex; whether it's the first time or the 212th time, depending on what you're doing on your own. But in his case, I realized that was not a healthy relationship a little bit too late and then months into the relationship he told me like, "Oh, yeah." And after some kind of [a] probably silly argument, he brought up...he mentioned that he was having an outbreak the first time we had sex together. So it was the weird thing of, "Yeah, I got a disclosure," but it meant nothing because he wasn't taking--like, I was not going to ask him to take antivirals because that's his body, his choice on that. But [chuckles] to take it a step further--I'm laughing because this is the only way I can deal [laughs] with that kind of stressful situation--but for him to take it a step further, It was like--I just couldn't contemplate why. I already said yes, like, I really, really liked [him]. I pretty much probably was in love at that point too. I [didn't] care. Like, "I love you for you. This comes with it. Cool. We'll figure it out." So for him to go then and then just be like, "I'm having an outbreak. Well, I might as well have sex with her for the first time." It was all a part of his mental manipulation game but that is something now I'm trying to come to terms with because it's the--obviously, people who don't get disclosed to or they don't know who gave it to them, you have to overcome the trust in that side of it, especially when you start new relationships and going out there. But for me, I was just like, I got the disclosure and my trust was still like--I don't know what the word I'm looking for is.
Courtney: Broken?
Bri: Yeah. Like it was just like, well I guess the disclosures mean nothing. But the good news is I haven't heard this--I don't know if maybe some other folks have experienced this, I'm so sorry if you have, but it doesn't seem like it's that common. But yeah, there was a very interesting process of coming to terms with--I think that's what also made it a little bit difficult because when I first got it, it was still very hard but I accepted the risk of it and it is what it is and I love him. And then after him saying that months into the relationship and being so mentally already warped, I didn't even blame him. I was just like, "Okay." [laughs] And now I look back at it, it was just like, that was not okay! What else is going on there? And then I feel like that's what made--when the relationship did end, which it needed to, it just felt like I was reliving my initial outbreak again, because it was just like all of a sudden it dawned on me, like, the trust that was broken with that and how he didn't even give me a chance to potentially not.
Courtney: It was like you had a choice but you didn't really have a choice. Bri: Yeah!
Courtney: Yeah. So there are many things that I want to go into in regards to this. So I want to ask you, do you feel like you're in a healthy headspace of being able to talk about this experience, and possibly go into more details about the relationship?
Bri: Yeah! No, thank you for checking with me. Especially if it's going to help someone else, I definitely want to talk about it because I know I stayed a lot longer than I should have because of all of this mess.
Courtney: Okay. Hopefully we can get to the athletic stuff--
Bri: [laughs] Because that applies.
Courtney: It's so good! Like, the conversations that we've had around that. But again, this here is going to be something that has layers to unpack. And I want to start with the disclosure. So it's, like, why disclose and then take the optimal risk of exposing a partner to herpes, right? That is something that...[sighs]. It sounds like a psychopath!
Bri: [laughs] Oh!
Courtney: To me, that only makes sense if I'm trying to trap you. That's the equivalent of getting you pregnant, knowing that you're not going to get an abortion and we're going to be connected to each other for the rest of our lives. You know, like obviously there's differences between herpes and a child, but--
Bri: It's the same thing of trying to lock down that person because a lot of people do stay in relationships a heck of a lot longer because of the herpes diagnosis, because then you don't want to attempt to meet someone new because of the fear of--like you've mentioned in previous podcasts--rejection. For me, personally, it was the fear of--after being in that type of relationship--my fear is now going to another relationship and coming across that same kind of psychopath [laughs]--or whatever variation of terms you want to use– and now they have something else they can hold against me, which is now my herpes diagnosis. So, it's tricky.
Courtney: And you said yes, that's the weird thing. You know, you--
Bri: I was fully on board! [laughs]
Courtney: You were all for it. He disclosed and you were like, "Okay..."
Bri: He disclosed awful-ly too, I would like to point that out.
Courtney: How did that go?
Bri: I remember just laying on the bed and then he's just doing this heavy breathing, and I'm just like, "Are you okay?" He's like, "I need to tell you something." And I'm not even thinking about S T Is or S T Ds. I'm like, "Please tell me you're not married. Please tell me you're not [laughs]. 'By the way, I got a family...'" [laughs] Not making assumptions about that, but that's what I'm thinking about when someone's having that kind of scared look in their eye. I'm just like, "Oh dear God [chuckles]. Someone's going to come after me?" [laughs] And then he just mentions, he just blurts it out and just was like, "I have H S V two." I don't even think he called it herpes. He just said, "H S V two." And yeah, that was it and he just stared at me. I was like, "Okay. Cool." And he's like, "So, uh, yeah, you might want to do some research so you can make some kind of decision about how we want to move forward." I was just like, "...cool." And I literally had to think for a second because, like, I know what herpes is but when you say the H S V one or two, all of a sudden--also, you've mentioned in your podcasts--I'm like, "Wait, what does that...acronyms, cool." [laughs] But that was it! And I was like, "...all right?" I am straight up cuddling with him at this time, and I didn't, like, lurch off. I'm just like, "All right, cool. Don't worry. I will do my research. I'll come with questions."
Courtney: Yeah. The way that you responded, had anyone ever disclosed having herpes to you before?
Bri: No! I feel like a [indiscernible] [laughs]. But granted, that doesn't mean someone maybe didn't not know they had it at that time or whatnot. I know I definitely could have--I practice safer sex, but I definitely could [have] been safer. But this is the first time where--yeah, this is the first time someone actually disclosed. And that's what made me even more attracted to him, actually, because I was just like, "All right, cool." I didn't care about how poorly he disclosed, it was more like, "Thank you for validating me and letting me know."
Courtney: "Thank you for the illusion of this choice."
Bri: [laughs] Well in that moment, it was very endearing to me. I was just [thinking about] how it probably was really hard for him and obviously, he cares about me [chuckles].
Courtney: You know, you sharing this makes me think about something that I say pretty consistently: once we give people the choice, the rest is on them. And now I'm thinking, if I'm telling people that..."All right, you told them you have herpes!" And if they choose to move forward, that's the decision. You can't make any other choice for them. But I also feel like when the risk is high--and this is probably just a one-off. I can't imagine wanting to have sex with an outbreak because that's uncomfortable. So part of me is hoping--I am hoping that he just said that to hurt you and that that wasn't actually the case that he was having an outbreak. So, while--
Bri: That's true too.
Courtney: --we know that that could be either end of the spectrum, let's just throw that out there that maybe--because you mentioned this became an abusive relationship.
Bri: Yep.
Courtney: So I can see that having just been thrown out there as a complete mindfuck. Especially being a Scorpio man and recognizing how...how you can hurt somebody if you want to have an impact on them. So I just want to throw that out there for now.
Bri: No, that's a very good point.
Courtney: Now--and I said "the illusion of choice". Oh my goodness.
Bri: [laughs]
Courtney: So you are now--did this relationship begin when the pandemic started? Just for clarity.
Bri: Yes. It was so many new things--
Courtney: You can say as much as you want to--
Bri: Oh no, you're fine.
Courtney: --you can be as vague as you need to.
Bri: It kind of started right at the start of 2020, this relationship. And that was the other thing, it wasn't like a speed into anything intimate. It was a lot of conversations first and it built into being more intimate. But we didn't have any sex until he truly disclosed, which once again, was a green flag. Like, "This is cool!" It wasn't like an "after the act" or right when we're about to get into it. That part was good. So literally, we got into a relationship. I think it was actually the first time when we were intimate with each other because he disclosed, I was just like, "I still want to jump your bones, I really like you [chuckles], this is great." Pretty much the relationship started with me having my initial outbreak [laughs]. But the relationship still went on for a year and a half, almost two years after that. So it wasn't like I got my first diagnosis and I was like, "Screw you! I'm out."
Courtney: You accepted this fully as just part of the relationship. It didn't make you have any resentment and you didn't throw this up in his face at all. You continued the relationship, you had the symptoms, you took the medication, and then moved forward in the relationship. Can you give me some insight as to what a relationship looks like after someone discloses to you,
you agree to move forward and then BAM, you receive a herpes diagnosis? Was there any sense of, "I gotta make this work and stay with you now"?
Bri: [laughs] So I think I probably don't have the best example of this.
Courtney: It's your experience. I just want real, I don't care about it being right, I want it to be real.
Bri: [chuckles] The diagnosis happened and he was like--he looked concerned and everything. Now obviously, I'm trying to take off the rose-colored glasses when I look back at these experiences, but during the initial diagnosis, which kind of sucked because he was traveling at the moment, so I was on my own dealing with it. And being my personality, I did not--I'm having one of the worst outbreaks and pain by myself with my little dog. And all I can think about is like, "I don't want to make him feel bad." Because in my head I'm just like, "This was just such a fluke incident, of course it happened on the friggin first time. What the heck is that like?" Obviously, in my head, I'm not thinking he's doing anything intentional or malicious. I think I mentioned before with you, once again, I'm not going to tell someone to take antivirals, do stuff with their bodies, or I'm not going to be like, "Can I check your stuff before we proceed?" No! I'm going to treat you like the adult you are and we built this relationship of trust and let's proceed. In the beginning, I was more focused on trying not to make him, like, freak out or feel bad because it just sucks all around if you get it the first time [laughs]. The hardest part about the relationship moving forward was [that] I don't think he came to a good place with it for himself. So suddenly, it felt like...something that made me feel a little bit better, I was like, "You know what? Well I'm going to be with him and we can proceed together. Maybe we can go to support groups together! Or if it's not that, maybe we can talk about best practices or what balms to use, or like antivirals versus"...is it lysine?
Courtney: Yeah.
Bri: "...lysine or what other options." I'm not going to be doing this alone. But it turned out to be the complete opposite. I still had some moments because--I don't know, my experience...I wasn't mad about it. I accepted it but it still is very jarring. Especially with maybe ways you grew up; there's still a stigma around it. I know I was having a little bit of difficulty with it, and the fact that my symptoms went on for a month plus and I was just miserable. I think the hardest part was that anytime I tried to reach out to him for support--not in the sense of expecting him to be like a therapist or a doctor--but just being like--
Courtney: Expecting your significant other--
Bri: [laughs] –to support--
Courtney: --who has a shared experience to be there. Do you know how long he had it?
Bri: I don't
Courtney: Okay.
Bri: But I didn't--once again--want to pry into, "Hey, how long have you had it? Who gave it to you? Do you know who gave it to you?"
Courtney: That's another thing to speak to as well because I'm someone who doesn't know who gave me herpes. I don't know where I got it from and I even hate using that phrase: "Do you know who gave you herpes?" It's a matter of, you know--[sighs] there's a better way of phrasing it, in the sense that's like, "What partner did you have that knew their status?" Or like, "Who disclosed to you?" I don't know. There's something there. But the response to not knowing where it came from versus knowing where it came from. I guess my question is...what's the difference to you? How do you think you would have reacted had you had herpes and not knowing where it came from versus knowing where it came from? And I say that because--or I asked you this because--in my response, it was, "Damn, I don't have a person to blame for this unfortunate thing. I just have myself to look at." And in your case, there didn't appear to be any blame because you wanted a relationship with this person, you liked this person, and you moved forward with them. And it was a non-issue until things became issues, right?
Bri: Yeah, like, I don't think I wouldn't--maybe it's because I'm very empathetic. Like, who gave it to [me] is not my concern. It happened. And that's it. So how are we going to--like you said--proceed forward with this relationship? I don't know, it seems very...[laughs] I don't want to be childish and be like, "Who gave this to you??" It's like someone asking, "Who was your first kiss?" It's just like, "What?" [laughs] Why does it matter at this point? Like, how's this going to affect us now? It happened already.
Courtney: And reaching out for support from a place that you should be able to get support from, you should be able to have a supportive partner; and mind you, the pandemic started so this relationship was also a pandemic relationship. And I very much believe that there are going to be significant studies about how relationships have been in the pandemic, that started in the pandemic, that ended in the pandemic, and how that may have played a role in things. So are you able to speak to that at all? Because there was lockdown, there were all of these things: precautions, COVID, talk about social distancing, masks, if you had COVID, these protocols. So I guess, how did entering this relationship during the pandemic and getting herpes all kind of play a role in what the relationship looked like?
Bri: I think it just resulted in being very isolated. So he lived in a different state and since I can work remote, I was willing to move. Not move; I still had my place, but I was willing to spend a lot of time during COVID at his place because his line of work he needed to physically be in the area for periods of time. So I was just--I am very [indiscernable] [laughs]
Courtney: Wait, it sounded like you said, "I'm very 'incompetating'?"
Bri: No, no, accommodating.
Courtney: Accommodating, all right.
Bri: [laughs]
Courtney: I didn't want you to have people thinking you were incompetent.
Bri: [laughs] No, no, no, no, I fully was aware of the decision I was making. But it put me like 2000 miles away from family and friends, but at that time--
Courtney: 2000 miles??
Bri: It was a distance.
Courtney: Wow! Okay.
Bri: So it wasn't like, I'm just gonna head home for the weekend [chuckles] type of deal. But once again, one, I really liked him and wanted it to work and once again, the ability to work remote helped out a lot with that. It was hard because with COVID it wasn't as simple as just like, quick flights or obviously, even road trips would have been rough, but like, with all the regulations and shutdowns, it was just either like, "All right, so either we're going to kind of start living together or we're not going to see each other maybe for, like, a couple months." And especially after the herpes diagnosis--I mean, it sounds probably bad by saying this--but I was just like, "I don't want to be alone." And especially with someone who at least has had it and, like you said, be that support. But the problem with--I think that caused--and he kind of convinced me of this, and so the problem is, I realized that pretty much isolated me from support, family, friends.
Courtney: Isolation! Aaaah!
Bri: I didn't know anyone in the area. And then when it came to even herpes support groups, like, obviously, everything had to shift. I mean, I feel like it was already probably pretty virtual. I can't really speak to it since before 2020. But I don't know, there was just a big shift in it and it was hard because the only support I had then was him. And when I would reach out to him when I was feeling upset, I think in my nice side of my brain [chuckles], I say he was obviously still dealing with his own demons with getting herpes. I didn't know his background story, obviously. I'm not one to pry.
Courtney: Real quick. How'd y'all met?
Bri: I'm trying to think of a way to say it without giving...[laughs]
Courtney: Was it a dating app, mutual friends?
Bri: It was...[laughs] I don't know if I can say it without it like--technically he saw me on a dating app, but then he...slid into my D Ms on Instagram.
Courtney: Got it. Okay!
Bri: So technically, he saw me on one of the dating apps, but he then--but obviously I was not being active as I was on the dating app. So he went to my Instagram. Not into my Instagram, but [laughs].
Courtney: All right! I was just curious.
Bri: But yeah. Through a dating app. And it's like a--should I say the dating app? Courtney: No, they ain't paying us.
Bri: [laughs] So one of the general dating apps. It wasn't like anything--
Courtney: Yeah! Because at that time, you didn't have herpes, so you wouldn't have been on that dating app.
Bri: It wasn't like even one that was more friendly towards--open towards--all groups of people and everything. It was one of the very generic dating apps. Does that make sense what I'm trying to put out there?
Courtney: Oh, I know exactly which one it was. I know which one it was.
Bri: [laughs]
Courtney: I know! Was it Plenty of Fish?
Bri: No! Oh my god. That one's terrifying! I did that one for a hot second. That's a whole different other story [laughs].
Courtney: Yeah, it's all good [chuckles]. Okay, back on track. You talked about, you know, basically, we're either going to live together or we're not going to see each other for a few months. And so you move in. And I guess where's the relationship at? Is there a shift at all? Are things consistent? What happens after you begin to live together?
Bri: In the beginning, it was definitely more...nice and accommodating and--but then it's the fun game of--and obviously there might have been--I always try to give excuses for people's [chuckles] behavior. But between the stresses of COVID, obviously him having H S V two and then suddenly I'm having H S V two and getting used to my new diagnosis and breakouts in the beginning. And then yeah, moving in together is a big step people forget about because then you're trying to like, mash up your coexisting. And it's not like a bad thing, it's just that you get used to your own routines and they have theirs and bringing that together. It doesn't mean a bad thing, it just obviously, there's going to be some friction there. So in the beginning, I think the problems really started when I would try to reach out for him for some support because obviously it's getting this diagnosis--obviously I was prepared for it, but at the same time, you're never truly 110 percent prepared for it when it actually happens. I'm not saying that to scare people and be like, "Okay, so I have to date someone who already has it." No. I did not take this out on my partner at all. It was more so...obviously it's a shift in your own body and you're like, "Okay, so what are we going to do now? What are my triggers? Is it this? Is it that? Do I need antivirals? Do I not? Do I just do treatment as needed?" It's an adjustment with your health! [Same with] any health diagnosis you get. But I remember so plainly, he pretty much--like, I was a little bit emotional because I felt very alone and I was just seeking comfort, and I remember he just shut me down so quickly. Deadpan face was just like, "Either you need to..." He's like, "There are support groups online in Google." He just shut down the conversation completely. Like, "You need to get over the stigma and you need to...if you have a problem, go for support groups."
Courtney: Says the person who discloses like, "[whines] Ohhh, I have herpes!"
Bri: I know! Discloses to me, gives it to me--
Courtney: Yeah!
Bri: --and then is just like, "Uhh, you need to get over this, whatever you're dealing with or find support online." I was just like, "I was kind of hoping I would get support out of my significant other a little bit." [laughs]
Courtney: So, let's speak to that. Because now we're talking about the expectations of emotional availability and emotional labor, right? So you may not have known that this person was not necessarily the most emotionally intelligent, aware--which typically a lot of cis-gendered heterosexual men are not very capable in the emotional department, right? So you needing support and seeking it from your significant other should have been,like, a default thing. Like, it's clear: We're together, we're both experiencing this and you have two completely different reactions to it. I speak to how typically men deal with it in an avoidant way, women typically deal with it in an anxious way, of like, "All right, I need to be prepared." And that is essentially what supported--the reasoning behind starting this podcast was a woman that I met on the dating site for people with herpes, and she had a boyfriend. They were monogamous, and she and I had connected because she wanted to be prepared for when her significant other had a diagnosis. She had tested positive with no symptoms and she was worried about giving it to him. He didn't care. He was like, "All right, well, if you got it, we got it." But what I'm hearing here is on your end your partner was avoidant and on this other end--
Bri: You got it! And you got it, that's it [laughs].
Courtney: And on this origin story here of Something Positive, she was anxious and her response was like over preparation, and even with her she still had suicidal ideation, despite not having had symptoms, despite being as prepared as possible. So it's interesting for me to hear the other side of this which is "man avoidant/woman anxious" and this is how it's prepared, or this is how someone prepares to navigate this thing. Where I wanted to go next with this--I got caught up in a moment. I was like, "Oh my God, this thing!" I want to speak to the responsibility, there it is. The emotional availability and the responsibility. To what extent--and this is just a question for people to ask themselves--what extent are you willing to offer a partner support? Because on one hand, it should be you know, "Oh well, here's some resources that you can look at." And again, with women, I find that women will over-prepare a man for what it means to navigate having herpes. Men have typically had--not necessarily the cold response that you got--but it's more of like, women know to look up information or where to go for the information and a man can just be like, "All right, hey, I have herpes." And then you'll do the investigating. But as far as once a person gets it, I think I've spoken to more people who are like, "Oh my God, I don't want to be responsible for giving this person herpes. Now I gotta stay in the relationship because I don't want to be a jerk for leaving." Even if they didn't want to be with them!
Bri: Yeah.
Courtney: Right? And in your case, you liked this person! You liked him, you wanted to be with him. And then now here you are, things get hard and it's an emotional thing. It's not just about having herpes. The undercurrent of you seeking support for herpes was just seeking emotional connection. And this person had shown to you that they were not emotionally available and emotional availability ought to be top of the list for every relationship. That--
Bri: Definitely.
Courtney: --is something that I am recognizing is super important. More important than whether or not someone does or does not have herpes, more potentially important than other compatibilities or incompatibilities because you can speak to these things and work through these things. People want emotional connection and if your partner is incapable of giving that to you, then you're setting yourself up for failure in the relationship. So with that being said, have you had any signs of whether or not this person was emotionally unavailable or unaware--unintelligent--prior to getting to this point in the relationship?
Bri: No, that's a great question. This is, like, leading back into like--I have no idea what I dated! [laughs] Because leading up to it, it was like almost a switch hit. Especially once I was at his place, separated. It started off a little bit slow and then all of a sudden, I was just like, "Who is this person I'm with in this house?" So it was a little bit nerve-wracking. Leading up to it, obviously, we spent a lot of time talking first on the phone. It didn't become intimate right away. So we got to like create that foundation. It wasn't him just trying to get into my pants, like, within the second date. We probably communicated and set up [asking each other], "What are your goals? What do you see your life going?" He was very big into his financial goals and setting up generational wealth and doing all this, which obviously...
Courtney: Honestly, he was woke! So he was woke!
Bri: Green flag! I was just like, "Love this! This is great." [He was] wanting to communicate and he was very big in communication! Like, "Tell me if you like something, tell me if you don't like something." But I mean, I'm not trying to say these are not red flags, these are all normal things. The problem is when someone uses these as a way, I think, to hook you in. Because all of this was great until--like I said--all of a sudden, the herpes diagnosis and then moving in and being isolated. It almost felt like a two-punch hit and then all of a sudden the mass dropped and I was just like,"...where am I? How did I get here? [laughs] And who are you?" Because it changed, and then it suddenly became--if I said I liked something, he would just say, "You're just saying that to make me happy." And then if I said, "I don't really want to do that", he'd be like...he would get mad because I didn't want to do that. I was just like, "You're upset when I say yes but you're also upset when I say no. And then I go quiet and then you get mad at me for being quiet because then I'm not communicating with you." But I'm like, "But...with communication..." That's a whole different thing besides herpes [laughs].
Courtney: Look at these projections and, like, someone essentially projecting the meaning of your behaviors, your responses that don't match up with what they want for your responses to be. And for them to be like, "No, actually you're saying yes because it's what I like, or you're saying no because it's not what I like." These are signs of a person who hasn't dealt with things on an emotional level. And I imagine that it's a lot of emotional labor to call someone out on that and challenge them on being that kind of person, too! So in this relationship, like, you can't do that! You're not safe to challenge someone's being abusive or being hurtful or harmful to you, right?
Bri: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, it's just one of those situations where no matter what I say you're going to be mad at me in some way or form. So whether I do give you my opinion, or whether I stay quiet, like it's just going to work out. But that didn't happen until like, maybe the third month in and that's when I was already--once again--already just getting over my first major outbreak with herpes--
Courtney: You're also isolated from family...
Bri: Isolated from family, friends, anyone I know, and it's just literally him and I in the house. So it was a terrible, perfect storm [laughs]. And then the hardest part with the--just to get back to the H S V, him just shutting it down and being like. What I was looking for, it wasn't like I wanted to sob or cry or vent. Like I told you in the beginning, I didn't want him to feel guilty because at that moment, I was just like, "This sucks for me, but I can't even imagine what he's mentally going through right now because first time...the first time [laughs] this happens." Obviously with three months later figuring out what--[laughs]
Courtney: Out of curiosity, did your sex life with one another change? Was there a sex life? Because I would imagine that even the first time having sex with someone getting herpes, you might view sex a little bit differently, especially with that person--
Bri: It was hard for me. It wasn't because I wasn't like attracted to him or, it just--I was dealing with my own personal demons with my own body at that moment. And it's funny because with him, obviously I knew he had herpes but I still wanted--once again--like it did not bother me at all. But then all of a sudden when I had it, suddenly I was nitpicking every part of my body. And then it kind of made me more insecure when it came to being a little bit more intimate. And I think what also did not help was his mindset. It was like--especially when I had a long outbreak, the first outbreak was worse; besides that pretty friggin easy--but his opinion then was--especially, like, it took a while for me to get over the first outbreak--but he kept pressuring to like, "All right, get over it. Now that we both have it, we can--"
Courtney: “Live happily ever after!”
Bri: [laughs] Well not even that, just like, "We can have sex freely and not have to worry about this now anymore." I don't know, it was just very messy.
Courtney: Well, I mean, that's what I would assume too: "All right, we both have herpes, great. We don't have to wear condoms anymore. We can have more spontaneous sex. We don't have to talk about or think about S T Is." Right? So this is typically where people's heads can go at that point.
Bri: It's not a bad thing but I still needed time. I was still in physical pain. Like, I was-- Courtney: Did you feel rushed or coerced into sex when he wanted it?
Bri: Yes.
Courtney: Okay.
Bri: And it made me feel bad because--once again--why are we so worried about the other person? I'm just like, I'm not trying to pretend like I'm still in pain or pretend like I'm still dealing with symptoms. It's not me trying to avoid sex with you because I don't want to have sex with you, it's just physically I'm in pain and mentally it's still a bit of a roller coaster. Not because of you, not at you, but it felt like no matter how many times I explained it all he heard was, "I don't want to have sex." [laughs]
Courtney: Oh wow. Again, back to the projections!
Bri: Yeah, just like [laughs] I'm still in pain!
Courtney: You were like, beat down in a way and primed for manipulation. And what I mean by that, is the way that no response was right. So you were essentially made small into figuring out--because you're an empathetic person, right? So you're a prime candidate for [being a victim of] abusive behavior and manipulation. You are hypersensitive and aware to what other people are feeling and thinking. For someone who may not even be aware of what they're feeling and thinking, it's really about what it is that they want in that moment. And you're responding to that. So now you're a "yes" person to whatever it is that they want, even at the expense of what your needs are. So I imagine that you've had to navigate the relationship in that way of becoming hyper attuned to what it is that he wants and now whatever it is that he asked for, [you say] yes. What was the final straw? What made the relationship end?
Bri: So the herpes was actually not the final straw, which is also a fun fact. Some people think it obviously has to be H S V and I'm like, "No, definitely..." What would have helped, though, is going back to him being like very closed--like, I felt like I was the only one in the relationship with herpes. I felt very alone. Or if I was having an outbreak it was almost like hushed tones...we both have it but yeah, I still have to be like, "I can't [have sex], I have a situation down there." But I'm talking to someone else who also has the same thing as me and I can't be like, "Yeah, I'm having an outbreak right now. I can't at the moment but let's try some other things." I couldn't even have that conversation with him. Or even, like, I remember I did the research; I got lysine, I got [products from] Safe Slut--her products are awesome--
Courtney: Shout out to Tricia!
Bri: Yeah! The lemon balm--
Courtney: Love you, girl.
Bri: [laughs] --all those products. I remember I was trying to like--not push it on him--he would oddly tell me when he was having an outbreak but I was just like, "I got these things, feel free to use them, like, this helps if you're feeling any--what's the word, the prodo?
Courtney: Prodrome?
Bri: Yes, [prodrome] symptoms. And then like, "But if you have a blister this stuff really has been helpful." And he would just look at me like I had three heads. I was just like, once again, "We both [have herpes]. What?" I'm not trying to casually talk about this over dinner [laughs], even though you probably should be able to. Like, just having that support, or you mentioned a couple when the guy was just like, "No, if I get herpes, we have herpes." It's like a team thing. Where I felt like I was on my own even though we were on the same team. It was very, very hard. But I think the final breaking straw was the manipulation when it comes to nothing I said was good and then I ended up crying a lot [chuckles], which then he would use that against me as well, and then the conversation turned into, "You're always so emotional, being too emotional." And there are some other aspects of it when he compared me to...I don't know...can you edit?
Courtney: I can edit, yup.
Bri: Ok [chuckles]. Well--
Courtney: I mean, I'd rather not.
Bri: I know you'd rather not! [laughs] I don't know if this goes in line with it. Courtney: Don't say names [chuckles].
Bri: No, I'm not saying names. It gets a little bit more into, um, racial.
Courtney: We only got like eight minutes left, so yeah.
Bri: Okay, that's fine.
Courtney: Go ahead!
Bri: [laughs]
Courtney: Oh, what? I knew he was Black, the way you told the story. I knew this dude was Black the whole time [chuckles]
Bri: This is such a very pointed, it definitely gives it away. So, I remember the breaking point. My sister was actually--God, there's so many details. But the main point was he was picking a fight and it's always like--like I mentioned before--if I say yes, because I know if I don't give an answer right away, he gets very up in my face and like very lecture-y. And it would get me emotional! Not in the sense [that] I'm like trying to win the argument but just in the sense of like, I just wanted it to work so bad. And I wanted the relationship to work, I would get so overwhelmed.
Courtney: Passionate?
Bri: Yeah! Like, I wasn't mad at him. I wasn't crying like, "I hate you!" It was more like crying just like, "Fuck, I just want to make it work! [laughs]" And I remember the--this is sort of the ticking bomb, where he just looked at me and like he's like [indiscernable]. He's like, "Black women don't get this emotional." And he's like, "It's just you white girls." I remember when he said that, I just stared at him. I was just like, "Did you--" I was dumbstruck. And I have female friends--like, I can't say all the details because I feel like that would give away who I am [laughs]--
Courtney: You don't have to.
Bri: I remember I brought that up and my one friend that I've told you about, she was just like, "Yeah, we wouldn't be emotional. He would just be dead." I was just like, "Oh! Okay!" So that's the community that you're speaking about. But then that brought up some more issues. I was just like, why can't Black women be emotional? Why are they expected to be unemotional, to handle stuff? Why is it that expectation and why are you comparing me to [them]?
Courtney: Well, here's the thing about people and abusers in general: People are only going to do what they are allowed to get away with so--
Bri: I can't argue it [chuckles].
Courtney: He wouldn't be able to have gotten away with that with a particular type of person. And so he chose a particular type of person that he thought he could get away with doing those things, which he did for a period of time. But after this conversation, what happened that led to the end of the relationship?
Bri: Well, he just would never say sorry. Especially with that because all of a sudden I'm like, "How are we--" Like, I was thinking about marriage and kids, all of the things and I was just like, "How are we--" And this is not the first time he pulled racial comparisons with it, which is fine. I know there's differences and that's why if we did have kids, we would have to work together to figure out...what it would look like and how can we protect our kids but make them aware of what's going on in the world. But after that, I just let up and I brought it up to him, I gave the comparison. I'm like, "How would you feel if I said, 'Well, a white guy wouldn't act like this'?" And he just ignored it. Like he completely just ignored it. He didn't apologize for it. I was just like, "So going forward in this relationship, I'm always wrong and I'm too emotional and you're going to compare me to a different race every time something goes off?" I'm like, "How is this going to work?" And yeah, it was just the manipulation over and over again. And there was another situation where--I don't know if I can give the details without giving it away.
Courtney: We need a CliffsNotes version because we only got like--
Bri: I feel like--sorry [laughs].
Courtney: So yeah, I mean I just want to know, how'd you get out?
Bri: I ended up packing my bags. I was a Hallmark movie, like [laughs], I packed my bags and garbage trashed things and luckily I had my car with me; filled it in, grabbed my dog. And I had to literally say, "We need to take a break." And pitch it as that. I couldn't even say, "I'm done." Because it was too hard to get out of the house and out of that situation. So I just said I needed a break, which that was even hard for him to comprehend or deal with. It took every fiber to get out of that house.
Courtney: So you had to sneak out?
Bri: I didn't sneak out. He saw me out, but it was a rough couple of days leading up to it where--like, it wasn't as simple as just like, "All right, you know what? You're right. We need some time." It was guilt trip, one after another. And then the whole entire thing like, "Oh, you're just going to give up just like that?" It's just like, we have so many things, so many issues. And then I think another reason I stayed so long--besides the manipulation--it was the herpes diagnosis. And then all of a sudden my trust has been diminished to nothing because here's a guy who--granted, like you said he might have just said it hurt me--but here's a guy who disclosed and I was fully on board and he's like, "I'm going to give it to her on the first go." [laughs] Then it comes to like, "What am I going to do when I go back out there?"
Courtney: Yeah, so it's almost like you were supposed to have just complied. Bri: Like, "All right, this is my life now! Cool."
Courtney: Yeah. All right!
Bri: Sorry, that was a lot [laughs].
Courtney: No! No, this was good. We didn't get to cover the athlete stuff, but that'll be in part two of this episode.
Bri: Definitely.
Courtney: So part one here is going to just be called The Illusion of Choice because this is, I mean it came back full circle, that's what we started with so that's what we'll end it with. So, I hope that people are able to take this episode and identify the importance of emotional availability in a partner, and how important that is over the herpes piece, right? Because if you recognized he was emotionally unavailable, and you saw that he was going to be the way that he was, then it wouldn't have had anything to do with herpes and you would have been like, "Nope! Not dealing with you, as a person, period." Don't matter about the diagnosis. Right? So that said, we will conclude this conversation in the part two episode and I'll get that up as soon as possible. Yeah, for those who don't know, Something Positive for Positive People, again, can be found on social media at h on my chest [@honmychest], the website's W W W dot S P F P P dot org [www.spfpp.org]. If you'd like to make a donation to the non-profit, supporting our advocacy efforts, I'm still paying for people to get therapy. Not everybody, but people who are primarily people of color. We ain't got a whole lot of money in the account. But L G B T people of color are at the top of the list right now, as far as being able to pay for therapy. Another thing that we're doing--oh, I got funding! I didn't get to tell you all that. This is my first recording back, it's May. This is my first recording in a while because I had a lot of recordings over the past several months that were done in like, February and March. Yeah. So I'm really stoked about that because what I'm going to do with that funding is this initiative to uplift, to support and highlight Queer-friendly, sex-positive, anti-stigmatizing, identity-affirming health care providers who offer sexual health-related services. And [for] the ones who aren't doing it well, offer a training in a way that has a facilitator and maybe I'm able to pay some sex educators to allow for healthcare practitioners who've been in the field for a while and may be rusty in their sex education to perform sexual health histories and screenings on sex educators so that they can get feedback, real-time, and hopefully be able to use this in their practice. So yeah, if you want to support those efforts too, always looking for more money, but I got about $10,000 coming in soon, as soon as these contracts go through and the Secretary of State stuff gets my stuff together. But yeah! I'll see y'all over in episode--this episode--part two. And until next time, stay sex-positive.
