SPFPP 377: Shades of Nonmonogamy

How do you balance being a wife, a mother, and a new girlfriend while navigating a major career transition? In Episode 377 of Something Positive for Positive People, Courtney Brame sits down with Melissa LeSane, a licensed therapist specializing in nonmonogamy. They explore the emotional messiness of polyamory, the restrictions of traditional therapy, and how finding presence can help us heal from burnout and fragmented identities. Tune in for a raw, honest conversation about relationships, sex positivity, and authentic living.

Quotes:

• “I didn’t want to work. And saying that out loud was the scariest part.”

• “I’ve never had this much space to choose myself and not know what comes next—and that’s the most peaceful I’ve ever felt.”

• “Non-monogamy began as sexual exploration, but emotional connection was the thing that rocked me.”

• “I’m learning how to be a wife, a mother, and a girlfriend—and not let any one of those roles erase the others.”

• “Presence isn’t performance. It’s the pause after the burnout.”

Follow Melissa: @shades_of_non_monogamy

Episode 377 Transcript

Stigma Minimization and Identity Validation

00:00:00 Courtney Brame: Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brin. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 nonprofit organization supporting people who are navigating stigma. Um, as you know, over the past few episodes, I've just been saying stigma and not herpes stigma. Uh, because many of our conversations go far beyond that. While herpes is typically what brings people here, I don't think that's what they stay for. I think that it's more so about the quality of presence through identity validation and being able to see how people have turned something that can be negatively influential on our lives into something positive. So that's where we are. Uh the name of the cover art is stigma minimization. And I realize I have never explained that but the idea here is to minimize stigma. I don't ever see a time where stigma just goes away or vanishes. It's going to be something that uh we have to learn to live with.

00:01:55 Courtney Brame: Um until everybody gets tested for herpes and we find out how many people really have it. We learn about how s***** the tests are and people are no longer allowing this to be something that inhibits their way of being. Uh I don't see us getting there. So I'm doing my part and just creating a space where people can have their identities validated. not exclusively through herpes, but in being able to just see yourself represented through a variety of identities. Um, especially for the people who share their presence here on this platform. So, thank you. Uh, today I'm here with our guest, Melissa. Melissa, I'm going to go ahead and let you introduce yourself and then I'm gonna listen and then respond.

Guest: Okay. Thank you. Yes, my name is Melissa, last name LeSane. And I'm from Los Angeles, born here in uh Los Angeles. And let's see, what do I want to share about myself?

00:02:52 Guest: I usually go into the whole thing like, well, “I'm at this and I do this and I don't like that”. So, um, let's see. I'm in a big transition in my life right now. That's what I want to share. Yeah, I have a lot of different transitions going on. I'm sure we'll get more into it, but I share that too because, you know, I often say that I'm a um licensed marriage and family therapist, sex positive sex therapy and relationship um specializing in nonmonogamy. So, that's kind of been my, you know, my niche, my little jam there, nonmonogamy. Um and also uh in addition to that some coaching and just sharing on Instagram primarily just a little bit about my own experience. That's what I really really love to do is just share my personal experiences period in life. Um you know but also specifically to nonmonogamy and um yeah so that's that's kind of what I do. Although I'm moving away from it, it's been slow, and now I'm like yeah I really want to do it now moving away from therapy from being a therapist.

Transitioning from Therapy to Coaching

00:04:05 Guest: Um I want to share my skills and my gifts and my experience in different ways although I don't know how and where and what yet. So that's the whole transition part. Um but I'm really excited for it. And um what else? Really quickly, also I'm passionate about being a sensitive person. I love, you know, connecting with and finding and you working with sensitive people, people who identify as sensitive or maybe empathic people or, you know, um that's really important to me, too. And another thing that I don't talk a whole lot about, but I'm kind of like dipping my toe in it now, is just um my own, you know, personal spirituality and experience of that and the journey of that. And yeah, I think that's where I'm going to stop. Right.

Courtney Brame: First, um what's the difference between therapy and coaching? Like why one both? Why not one or the other or like what?

00:05:12 Courtney Brame:: Yeah. What's the difference?

Guest: Okay. Uh well, for me primarily um why I kind of explored the realm of coaching it was kind of just a mental thing for me. Um because being a therapist e even though I've had so many supportive radical even mentors and supervisors working under the board working under the government working under the BBS with the board of behavioral sciences board of behavioral sciences. Yes. For me it just has been, it's been challenging. I feel restricted. I feel like I can't be and do and say, you know, what I want or who I am. Although many therapists, um have many therapists find their way through that, you know, they do their thing regardless. And I love that. And I've been so inspired by them. Personally, it's just I just I'm just like you know... So that was kind of the initial reason because I was so curious and interested to work with people in ways that I felt were always you know either scrutinized or just like a limitation with therapy whether that was sharing about myself because again I said like I really love to share and I think that's just the thing that I do well is like sharing my own stories my own experiences you know and I felt like I couldn't do

00:06:50 Guest: a whole lot of that in therapy… at least that felt good to me as a therapist. So yeah.

Courtney Brame: Yeah. I'm always

Guest: But there's so many others, you know, sorry, real quick. There's so many other paths that we can get into about the difference between coaching and therapy. If you really want to get into we can, but that's my difference and kind of my, you know, my reason why I went more into coaching.

Courtney Brame: Yeah. Um, what I was going to say was there is something about just the skill of holding space and being able to listen to people and also being able to share your experiences too. I imagine you've experienced this where people hear something that you share about your personal life that resonates and then it opens them up to share a little bit more in depth. Right. I think that having this podcast and being open about my own herpes diagnosis allows for people who would normally maybe pursue a therapist right away or some type of coaching where they have to like dig dig dig to get to know a person.

00:07:58 Courtney Brame: There's something to be said about the vulnerability of what we put out there allowing for people to come in already having dug and been like this is, this is a problem for me and then be more willing to answer those questions. So yeah, when you said that, I kind of was like, yeah, like there's a lot of restrictions with being a therapist. You don't want to do these things and there's just like rules that you have to follow. Whereas if you just got a podcast or a social media page, like, and I'm very mindful that yes, harm can be done, but there is still like that humanness, that human connection of someone being open and vulnerable and then the other person being able to see themselves in your experience.

Guest: Yep. Exactly. Um what you said exactly and even I've kind of even started to shift away from coaching from just working in that very specific way of people coming to me because like I have some kind of answer for them or something like that or some kind of fix it or something, you know?

00:09:05 Guest: Whereas like you said versus maybe having a podcast or creating something or just sharing and letting kind of letting happen what needs to happen. A lot of times you know a lot of times there isn't necessarily something to fix or you know or an answer. It's just kind of having that opportunity to, you know, kind of be or to, like you said, to just kind of shine light on something or to connect, whatever it is, you know, but it's not necessarily always this thing that we have to accomplish specifically. So, yeah.

The Pressure of Performance and Content Creation

Courtney Brame: Yeah. And I think what you're speaking to is presence, right? It's not really doing or performing and like marketing. It gets on my nerves because it is so performative, if you want to align with what's going to get promoted, what people are going to see, what people are going to be able to amplify. Like you have to play that game. And that game is really something that just takes me out of being present.

00:10:10 Courtney Brame: And I don't know if that's the same, you know, thing with you because I look at even social media. I know that you are active on uh Instagram specifically and as people talking about relationships, dating, sex education, nonmonogamy, these kinds of conversations are absolutely getting more censored and muted, we got to dance around the language, put symbols in places and typos and things in order for the message to even get out.

Guest: Yep. Exactly. I mean, yeah, I am. That’s Instagram is the place that I go to. Um, I guess it's just familiar and that's just Yeah. Um, but also for that reason, what you said of kind of the marketing thing, the dance and all that, I too I. It's hard for me and hence why I'm not consistent and I have spans of like months that I'm not there, don't do anything. And I'm here because I've come back after like I don't know several, several months of not creating anything.

00:11:12 Guest: So yeah.

Courtney Brame: Uh do you want to talk about the several months of not creating things?

Guest: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Courtney Brame:What was it? Was it just burnout? Was it personal stuff? What? All of the above.

Guest: Yeah, I think it was wasn't burnout necessarily from Instagram or content creating or anything like that. It was um initially burnout I think from just the work that I was doing um as a therapist or trying to do as a therapist. And then um I'm I can get into that a little bit. I'm just going to kind of share. But the burnout kind of that just like my profession um there was let's see personal stuff, you know, a lot of uh relationship stuff. Um what else? parenting and the challenges of, you know, my own expectations of being a parent and what I think that should look like. Um, what else?

00:12:14 Guest: Financial struggles, you know, and then like navigating being in this space of um I I want something different. I don't want to do therapy anymore. I actually don't want to work at all. And I was dealing with that for a while. I was like, “you sound crazy. like you, what are you talking about?” You don't want to work. Um but more and more I was like yeah I think I need a break. I and it just just to allow myself to say that was so hard, was so hard. It is still so hard you know because there's a part of me that's like no you got to be looking for the next thing. You got to you're not in the financial position to do that. Um figure it out, figure something do something in the meantime. And but the huge part of me is like no I actually just want to chill and get into creativity but not for you know for a specific purpose just because that's what I want to do you know is create and be in that creative space.

00:13:14 Guest: Um that's kind of a little overview of that. Um again oh and the spiritual kind of journey that I'm on. So, you know, there was just an intentional kind of need for time with myself. Um, but yeah, a lot of different changes, family changes. Um, Wayne, my husband and and his relationship, new relationship dynamic and, we were kind of figuring all that out and integrating that, you know, in our lives. So, yeah, so much so much going on.

Balancing Multiple Identities and Spiritual Priorities

Courtney Brame: Yeah. Um, what did that time look like for you? So, I'm hearing it's like seven things that I want to comment on and touch on, but I'm hearing a bunch of different intersections of career, uh, the relationship structure that you have. I'm also hearing about not wanting to work, right? So these layers of things that I think each individually maybe has their own needs of you and your presence and then you stack these things and it becomes like a dance where you have to keep up with all of these identities, parent, partner, uh worker.

00:14:35 Courtney Brame: And now we're talking about the spiritual component because that spiritual s*** that s*** hit different like when not prioritized makes all of these other identities that we have a lot more difficult to manage and navigate. Whereas when we prioritize the needs of the spirit, what we see is that a lot of those other identifications don't necessarily go away, but it's a lot to just be present for and with what the moment calls for. Is that kind of what your experience has been with spirituality?

Guest: I love the way that you're listening to me because yeah, you're you're very on point with it and that's kind of that that's on point with what I was experiencing in those several months. It was like reprioritizing spirit, you know, and I'm not even really sure how to talk about it out loud or the people like you're probably one of the first people like on social media or whatever. Well, besides like one person who I was doing some content with that like I don't it's not something that I talk about or share very much.

00:15:45 Guest: Um, even in my personal life, you know, I'm kind of like I don't always talk about that. It's something that is still even not I'm not sure how to share that yet. But anyway, a reprioritizing of spirit. Yes. And with all of those identities, it was like you know how they say things like identity death or ego death or whatever. Um, it was just like all of those identities kind of coming up and then just me just needing to be like, you know, like, woo, just they're so important to me. They're so real. So much is happening here. And also, I just need it to be quiet. I just need it all to just quiet. And, you know, I need a moment for me. And um, yep, that's what it's been like. It's just like a lot of going inward. Um, a lot of like, you know, what I thought was important to me, who I thought I was is just all changing and shifting and but also at the same time like feeling more connected and to myself than I think I ever have in my entire life.

00:16:58 Guest: And at the same time having no answers, no, you know, feeling like I still don't know what's ahead. But that's fine, I guess.

Courtney Brame: You know, is that kind of what peace feels like, right? To not know what's coming and being okay with not knowing what's coming. Just like there's more of a calm to the nervous system that comes with that. Is that an accurate way of

Guest: I don't know that I'm… I think I'm just getting into the “calmer” because it definitely peaked you know and and felt very chaotic uh before this like calmer is just like starting to come through. Um like another another more specific to get into a little bit more specifically you know I also um have been navigating a new relationship and talk about you know you're like spirituality that s*** hits different new relationships. Oh my god. Talking about bringing up just triggering, bringing up all the insecurities, all of, you know, just having to face you. It was like no matter where I turned, it was like me, I got to see me and I got to see me, you know, and that s*** was really hard.

00:18:20 Guest: Felt very exposing, raw, vulnerable, like Yeah. Um, so that's a whole new, new experience too for me.

Courtney Brame: All right. So, can we go there?

Guest: I'm a little scared, too. But, yeah. No, I want to. I want to.

The Complexities of New Relationships in Polyamory

Courtney Brame: But, okay. So, we're talking about a relationship. One, you literally have coached, been a therapist for people navigating non monogamous relationships. You are a parent. How many How many kids you got? If you can share. Five. Altogether. Four that I've birthed. So, y'all got five kids, right? And you’re wife, you’re wife, yes. All right. So, wife, mother, and now girlfriend, too. Yes. Right. Yes. All right. How the hell do you How do you do this? How do you do this?

00:19:15 Guest: I just do it day by day, I just do it. I just day by day. Hence, you know what I said, the whole several months of just kind of disappearing and, you know, all of these identities just finally coming to like a, you know, um, I don't know how I do it. I just do.

Courtney Brame: All right. So, this new relationship, why is this like a thing that is comparable to spirituality like rocking you and making you see all these things? has any parenting, has uh becoming a wife, has the career transitions, right? Like how come this new relationship carries more weight? Or I guess maybe it's more recent, but carried more that that weight for you than any of those things.

Guest: Um I I wouldn't say it carries more weight. It's just one of the things that is pretty present, you know, and happening right now. But yes, absolutely. I mean, I think that's just kind of who I am.

00:20:24 Guest: I everything can be spiritual, like I mean, so the thing it's a it it's not necessarily separate or different from this the bigger spiritual journey that I'm on, you know? It's an extension of that for sure. And I think that's just kind of who I am. It's like everything can be a spiritual experience for me, you know, I can just have that deep meaningful… you know, get something out of everything, experience with everything that I do. So absolutely um parenting has been that for me probably of the biggest kinds see I got to see myself you know um giving birth uh my relationship with Wayne um you know yeah so many different things absolutely. um my connection with my best friend you know my soul sister. That has been a whole thing too but this one is cuz yeah it's just currently you know, one of the things that I'm going through. But I think also I'm going to take a moment to really feel that before I just answer it.

00:21:36 Courtney Brame: And listen, if we need to shift gears, we can. I got you.

Guest: Thank you. I appreciate it. Um, I want to share like I want to share. I want to share because it's something that is genuinely like on my heart right now, you know, and that I kind of I think I've been a lot keeping to, you know, navigating kind of on a per just keeping it personal or whatnot, but I don't know. I just feel moved to share something. So, thank you for that. But um I think that it's maybe an experience, an experience, um where I'm like fully just like okay being like let me let me fully give, you know, let me fully like put myself out there. Let me be emotionally just vulnerable and messy and raw, you know, while at the same time like feeling myself, wanting to hold back. Like just that whole dance of like, no, but no, it's not safe yet.

00:22:43 Guest: Don't you can't do this. You can't say this. Oh, you're going to be perceived this way or whatever the case. But also, you know, still trying to do that. Um, and I think um, there's a vulnerability too, like being married and being a girlfriend, like being in a relationship, being married, and then starting a new relationship. Oh, the really important part, too. So, I met Wayne at 18 when I was 18. I'm now 40 and so we've been together for 22 yearsish or something. Um, so dating and relationships and I had one boyfriend before that it's not I don't have that like dating experience a whole lot of that dating experience or having different relationships to see myself in and you know to go through the you know maybe the like the conflicts the ups and downs you know obviously with Wayne um but it's just different doing it with somebody who you haven't been doing it with for 22 years with if if that makes sense. So there's also that and the intersection of now, you know, being in a different stage in my life and being in a stage in my life where I'm like, what's for me?

00:24:03 Guest: What else is for me here besides, you know, just not just, but being a mom and being a therapist and being it's like, what do I really want? I don't know if any of that made sense. This is the first time that I'm talking about it so publicly.

Courtney Brame: Oh, look. This is Listen, this is a great space to allow for newness. I do sense that maybe you're being vague on purpose. I don't know if that's like to avoid vulnerability or too much vulnerability or to avoid oversharing or if there's like other people involved and you want to protect them. So, like let me support you in getting there and navigating the conversation.

Guest: Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, all of that is true. All of that is true. And um it's a thing that I just generally struggle with and deal with. Like what you're seeing, what you're experiencing from me right now is like ah is a thing.

00:25:04 Guest: Hence why I created this page, this new page. I don't know if you've seen it. Oh yeah, we've talked about it because you got to be you're gonna be on that page. Um, it's my time where it's all about, you know, our voice, developing our voice, you know, the power in our voice. It's just been, it has been a challenge for me. Um, I I it's the vulnerability piece. It's the um, yeah, being vague for other people as well, too. and um and just still struggling with the confidence of like what do I want to say?

Courtney Brame: I got you. So, as someone who is pretty open about my life, I definitely understand those protections especially of wanting to uh protect other people and you know the relationships. You don't want to say something that someone else maybe didn't want you to share. So what I generally do is leave it at I'm me statements and just kind of like talk about very vaguely, oh this person, this happened, right?

00:26:13 Guest: Yeah.

Courtney Brame: People will never be able to pinpoint who it is that I'm saying.

Guest: Yeah. Yeah.

Sex Positivity as a Presence Practice

Courtney Brame: Experience with uh but I share that. So like one of the things that comes to mind for me now is like maybe I can ask you like more direct questions too because as we talk about like you were 18 when you met your now husband uh y'all been 22 years, you had one boyfriend before that partner before that and now as you are at this stage of being curious about self like there's a lot of self exploration is what I'm gathering. like you just kind of you did the things you were supposed to do and you looked up and it's like well damn did I how much of this did I want to do? Like I'm sure there's some of it that you wanted to do but now just looking around and being able to see what your options are as far as how to exist, how to live. I know something that stood out to me I think was that 2023 Sex Down South when I met you for the first time?

Guest: In 2023. Yeah.

00:27:22 Courtney Brame: Mhm. You had your kid with you and I was like, "Oh s***." Like that's tight. Like you, you brought your baby. How old?… How old was your baby? At the time…

Guest: She was born in ‘22, so she was months old. It wasn't even a year.

Courtney Brame: Yeah. Yeah. And I I that's something that always stands out to me because it's um it's very much like the environment, that environment, specifically for mostly like the sex positive people of color like seeing that and seeing that you know this was even a place for you where you're like I'm committed. I'm showing up to this like you brought the baby, right. So talk to me about your experience with sex positivity as somebody who's been married since 18 and now or not married since 18, but you've been with your person for all these years. Like what is your curiosity? What's your draw to the world of sex positivity?

00:28:19 Courtney Brame: Is that something that you've always been into?

Guest: Um yes. Uh well, talking about sex, sexuality, or you're just, you know, the thing about sex and sexuality is something that I've always been into. Um sex when I think about sex positivity, I think about the fact that I didn't learn that word or, you know, until I was in grad school to become a therapist. I didn't even that was like the first time that I heard sex positivity. Um and you know then started to learn about different content creators and educators and therapists and professionals who were sex positive. Um and it just opened up my world and it was great. It was awesome. I did a lot of self, you know, self um healing and therapy through that. Um and sex positivity to me is um I guess I would describe it as just um acceptance, you know, as acceptance for our full sexual selves. Um it's not about right or wrong, you know, or good or bad.

00:29:43 Guest: It's just we talked about presence. It's like the presence with what is there you know in a positive way. So yeah.

Courtney Brame: So what's interesting is um I was recently looking up what the word positive means and what negative means and I always like good bad but the word negative means absence and positive means presence. So it is like the presence of something. So when I think about sex positivity, I think about bringing presence to the world of sex and sexuality, right? Because what I say stigma often does is it fragments our sense of self, our sense of identity and it really separates our presence and sends us into this space that is it makes us fragmented. It makes us small. It makes us only or overidentify with a much smaller part of ourselves. I use herpes as an example. When a person gets herpes, it's not that they have herpes. It's oh my god, this is who I am now.

00:30:43 Courtney Brame: I have to lead with this is what I have. I have to lead with, oh, I'm going to expect rejection for this. And there's a loss of that sense of wholeness. And what I've learned through sex positivity or presence in that is that's really the way of reintegrating all these aspects of yourself and allowing for yourself to become whole again. And that is absolutely one of the things that I got to see demonstrated out loud in sex at sex down south. And for me, I've learned that in these spaces, these queer spaces where I get to see sex positivity demonstrated by black and brown people, it's very much been something that has challenged me while simultaneously liberating me and just being able to witness queerness. Like I've gone through this phase of man am I queer because all these things that I like about this stuff but it's still just not ever really felt like mine. So that questioning of my manliness, how I do relationships, my masculinity, identity, and even in my politics, right?

00:31:55 Courtney Brame: I feel like that's what I've been able to get out of these spaces and really be more affirmed in who I am. And so it I would say that that sex presence, sex positivity has been a presence practice for me of being able to more so just like hold that wholeness of myself and not even overidentifying with my sexual self, not over identifying with my straightness or my uh what's quirky about me or what's like different or where I don't feel like I fit in. So I use that to give you context in how I would like to know um yeah like what you've been able to really like to get out of this.

Guest: Yeah, thank you. That was a beautiful um description of your sex.

Courtney Brame: Never be able to say it that same way again unless I'm practicing. So thanks for holding the space.

Guest: You're welcome. Um, what do I want to say to that? Um, yes, it makes me think about what you said.

00:33:12 Guest: We were talking about the presence like um as being our whole selves. Um and also like the actual presence in our experiences and like the day in the you know the actual experiences that we have as a sexual being. Um I think um having experienced some trauma, you know, it's easy to kind of be going through the motions, you know, of our sexual experiences, not just the actual physical part of like having sex, but even just being connected to our sexuality. What is, you know, what is my sexuality? How do I? How am I in my sexuality and engage, you know, through my sexuality? It's like I think in one period of my life a blur. It's just been a blur and it's just like going through the motions of it, you know, but um over time it's I've been able to connect to that, you know, more consciously, more, you know, intentionally, like really feel it all and choose it, you know, and enjoy it and celebrate it.

00:34:32 Guest: Um, and yeah, even the hard parts about it, whatever that might be. So, um, yeah, I want to say that. Do give me some follow-up questions if you have

Exploring Emotional Intimacy within Polyamory

Courtney Brame: The followup is just coming out of Yeah, just this being your only or your first relationship, right? I'm very curious. Uh because what is it like purity culture where people are married to the first person that they have sex with, often the only person that they have sex with. They get married. They go through the motions. Eventually things don't work out. They divorce and then it's like tada. Now I have to explore my sexuality. I've only had sex with one person. I don't know what I'm missing out on. and for you to still be married, like I'm assuming that the relationship wasn't rooted in any of that like purity culture, anything like that. So, I guess my question is exploring what does it look like to learn or explore your sexuality when you've been with someone for so long?

00:35:38 Guest: Well, that's kind of been I think the, the beautiful thing about nonmonogamy for me is it's you know h I've it's been the space for me to to do that and so no it doesn't come out of like purity culture or anything like that. Um it's it's you know I was 18 when I met Wayne and and I just kept choosing him you know and I was like this is great this has been a beautiful relationship and um but we've been nonmonogamous since day one. So we were very open about that conversation about you know nonmonogamy although I always say like I didn't really I didn't know what it was. I didn't know I didn't really hear that word. I didn't know there was the, you know, actual thing concept. I didn't know there were places and communities and spaces. Um Wayne was a little bit more familiar. So, you know, that's how I kind of was. I learned about um that there was more out there for me.

00:36:38 Guest: I was just kind of like being my open, you know, curious self and exploring my sexuality with my partner at the time. But um yeah through that I was able to you know we the the nonmonogamy part for Wayne and I initially was very sex centered. It was very much about exploring sexually together with other people. Um so and it was you know within the swing community. So it was very much doing it together as well too. So there were still a lot of like monogamish/monogamous kind of qualities of it. Um but we kind of opened it up for sexual exploration and kind of initially specifically to do that together and um then that has evolved into so many different things over the years and over time. You know we opened ourselves up to exploring you know separately. We opened ourselves up to romantic, you know, emotional connections at some point and whole, you know, relationships, which again, that's all, this is all new. The first time that we both have had like this official, you know, other partner in person in our lives.

00:37:54 Guest: So, um I think I feel like I'm going off into a tangent. So,

Courtney Brame: Oh, no. You're giving information that will help me with next questions for sure. Um the So you've never y'all never been monogamous like fully. So when I guess there is no like the transition from strictly sexual to emotional intimacy and connection. How did you feel about that? Did you feel threatened by that or was it different for you? Was that challenging to go from, oh, we're having sex with people and now it's like, oh, we're actually, wait a minute, there's emotional connection or there's intimacy there. Talk to me about it

Guest: It was a mess. It was a mess.

Courtney Brame: So, is that why it feels so much more threatening than a sexual relationship? Because in monogamy, you know, I uh when I was 18 or going through college, like the worst thing that could happen was for me to have sex with someone else.

00:39:01 Courtney Brame: That was like the worst thing for whatever partner I was with, right? And then I started to learn that not having sex with a person that I wanted to have sex with was worse because it's like, wait, I would I would rather you just have had sex with them because now like what do you mean you talking to them every day? And it's like, "Which one do you want me to do, right?” Like it's just I'm either like I'm I'm not having sex with this person so it's not cheating. But then I learn about emotional cheating and then like the linguistics of these things. It's the kind of like how you said you choose Wayne every day, right? Like if I'm with someone, I'm choosing to be with this person and I'm choosing to honor our agreements and boundaries, but over time it just feels like it becomes more and more and more and more restrictive in how I honor the boundaries and that becomes more important than that I honor the boundaries at first.

00:39:58 Courtney Brame: So that's the background for what my question is on why was the emotional stuff so hard?

Guest: Yeah. Yeah. I say I say it was a mess because um it wasn't some… how do I want to say this. It wasn't something that well first of all I might do this and then go backwards. For me, it was a mess because it was a shift that felt really hard for me. It brought up a lot of shame, I think, for me. Um, and I think it just kind of exposed what I felt was my lack of experience of relationships and or you know relating or kind of like knowing myself or having an idea having a sense of self relating with other people in a you know more emotional intimate way. It was like my experience was I'm feel you know meeting somebody liking them you know feeling feelings for them and then now I'm in a relationship with them and then I've been in the relationship this whole time you know and so it just kind of I don't know made sense I guess that like relationship escalator thing.

00:41:19 Guest: Um, but it was a mess for me because I was like, "But wait, but I'm already in a relationship, you know, and I have these deep feelings for this person. How can I have deep feelings for another person, you know, and what does that mean?" And so, I think it was more like questioning myself. I felt so bad for it. I was like, "Oh my gosh, you're …

Courtney Brame: Oh, I muted myself." As someone who has, you know, five kids and a husband, right? I would think that you wouldn't have to worry about that thought of like um I think they use this example of just because I have another kid doesn't mean I love this one less, right? Like it's love. you as a loving person, anyone who comes into that sphere that is your presence is going to, you know, hopefully if they're in your bubble, like they're in your bubble. So, they get to receive that fully. And you mentioned earlier, uh, working with sensitive people and identifying yourself as a sensitive person.

00:42:27 Courtney Brame: So, like I imagine that you can feel overwhelmed by the joy, the love, the pleasure, the presence, and it can be just intense. It's not bad. It's just that it's intense. And that sort of like something that you're facing among the, "Oh, I'm in love with this person. I have intense feelings for this person. Oh my god, I'm having intense feelings for this person." And is it just in feeling that intensity that maybe feels a little bit uh I guess rocky for you?

Guest: Yes, absolutely. It um all of those things. So um it I think uh see yes being a parent that is one one thing that helped me to kind of you know work through that. I was like wait, I got experience here. I do have experience here and I like to give myself some credit. Um that is one thing that definitely helped me. Um, as well as, you know, I mentioned my connection with my best friend.

00:43:27 Guest: Like I just absolutely love her. Granted, it's different, you know, we're not having a sexual relationship or romantic relationship, but I still have these like deep intense feelings for my friend, you know, and it was like, we don't do that with friendships, you know, but somehow we do it in that kind of romantic. Anyway, but yes. Uh, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Courtney Brame: I was going to ask, do you think that that's because like sex is a vehicle of expression? It can be an opportunity to release, connect, merge, share space, and like create and play with tension and then release it. Whereas with our friendships, there might not be tension building. There might not be a need for release necessarily because I'm thinking about, you know, with my friends, right? Like when we hang out, like if we're playing Call of Duty or if we're going out, right? like it's usually I would say a mutual event task thing that's happening that we're participating in that I think is and this is me I've never said this before so like bear with me as I'm trying to get this out but the the release the connection the tension isn't necessarily with one another directly but it's more so the thing that we're focused on.

00:44:51 Courtney Brame: So, we're focused on having a good time. Man, we had a great time. This was fun. Like, that's the intimacy. At least for me, with my friends, it's like we're doing things. When we get a win in Call of Duty, like that's like the equivalent of having ah that doesn't even feel right to say, but connect with someone that you are able to have like that release with like the tension is in the connection. It's in the emotional entanglement. It's in learning each other. It's in the doing for each other. It's in the sexual expression. Whereas like with friendships, you know, we're yeah, we're doing activities and when the activity has been completed, there's that feel after. So, is that, is that I don't know if you again, I've never said this before.

Guest: So, yeah. I I I swear I heard something that describes what you're talking about somewhere and I don't I I couldn't find I don't wouldn't find it but it was like yeah how friendships uh I think actually they were talking about friendships with men versus friendships with women but you know um oh you know Yeah.

00:46:03 Guest: Yeah. And it was saying something about that. So no, I think you make really great points. Um I think that this idea of like tension um is there that's something that is that is real you know this tension versus the opportunity to release and however you do it you know but there's like this this flow of energy that gets to happen with the friendships I think you know that maybe sometimes always doesn't happen in sexual emotional or romantic relationships there's this like this tension or this not this kind of ability to just flow

Courtney Brame: Okay, you saying that just kind of made me picture this. But I think about friendships, you're kind of aligned already, right? Like you're not more so getting to know. You just look up and you've been friends with somebody for a long time and they're just like a part of your world, right? Whereas relationships, I don't think I ever worry about losing a friend, but I worry about losing a relationship, right?

00:47:09 Courtney Brame: And my friendships, I'm learning the importance of being able to have what I have in my friendships in my relationships. And even that isn't something that's really easy. It's always going to be a challenge to get to know someone new and for you to introduce yourself to someone, but there's something to be said for the intimacy of nonsexual relationships where both parties don't want to have sex with each other versus sexual relationships.

Guest: Yes. And so I want to bring that back to kind of something I said earlier was it's like but me I always you know I have a tendency to like whatever I'm experiencing it's it's a it's a thing it's a spiritual thing and so I think it there's levels of or there's different types right and different degrees of like levels of friendship um uh the friendship that I have with like what I I best friend even though we hate that word and we just I don't have a word that fits us, but um with her, you know, I don't have that same like that's not how I do friendships with all my friends.

00:48:20 Guest: Uh I would be exhausted. I wouldn't be able to because I don't have that many friends to that extent and that level because of that. Um but even with the friends even though it's not to that extent still kind of the friend people that I call friends and have around you know even though I'm not the best keeping in touch all the time and I still carry this like want to at least have this some level of depth with them you know so even though I said all of that about like friendships there gets to be this like flow and then relationships not so much well with me even in my friendships there's still can be this experience of tension. Um, and I think that just speaks to who I am maybe or whatnot. But, um, but there's still, yeah, there is still a difference. I think there's like there's something that just feels so visceral and like puts me in survival mode, you know, when it comes to like these romantic sexual romantic relationships versus friendships.

00:49:24 Guest: I may still, you know, be concerned or like h could this friendship change? Could I lose this person? Like I've had that experience before, but there's there's there's like more I'm able to allow that more somewhere here or not feel like it might not feel as visceral where like something here is, you know, is different. Um, but I wanted to go back to your questions about why it was so messy for me? Um, I have maybe maybe this is a thing. I've never said this either, so I'm kind of saying it for this. I'm here. Maybe, you know, again, I have more experience with friendships even though I feel like even that is a little bit like iffy. Um, I've always kind of felt that I've been a little socially awkward or just, you know, kind of struggled on the social level sometimes. Um, overthinker and all this stuff, uh, social anxiety and whatnot. But there's, you know, some there's some there's some there's more experience there.

00:50:30 Guest: Whereas like with this the first time that I felt these intense feelings for somebody that wasn't my husband, it was it was it did it did it rocked me. It was like, whoa, what is this? And I felt very guilty about it, you know, and it was messy because I was like, what does all this mean? And um you know you were talking about like I said mentioned like over the years um now I'm in an exploration phase whereas like some things I was kind of just like going through the motions being a wife and being married was a big part of the going through the motions type of thing you know a lot of parts of that was. And so um there it was like yeah I felt like I wasn't a good wife. I felt like I was a bad wife, you know, I felt like I was not being loyal to my husband. I felt like, you know, all of these things.

00:51:32 Guest: And also, I think a big part of why I felt messy was because I didn't really know that I didn't really have that experience of like, oh, you're lusting after somebody. You're not trying to be with them. You don't want to be with them. You're not like, you know, but me, I was like, no, these feelings maybe, you know, but then I was like, well, no, I just I'm enjoying these feelings. But I think because my husband got scared for a second, you know, it was all confusing. It was so confusing. And I don't think I had enough knowledge of myself and a sense of myself to be like, "Hey, love. Hey, babe. Like, don't worry. It's not I'm not trying to I'm not wanting to leave you, you know, like this is I'm just this is, you know, a new experience. It's fun, whatever. Um I think I didn't have that awareness within me enough.

00:52:28 Guest: So then I was like, wait, am I in love with this person? And then, you know, eventually I was like, no, I'm not in love with this person. I just, you know, it's lustful. It's fun. It's great. I'm enjoying this person, but I'm not trying to be with this person. I don't want to have, you know, necessarily want to have a relationship, although I could, you know, it's possible. And I'm definitely not trying to leave my husband either. So, that's kind of where some of the messiness was, too. There was a lot of guilt and shame and embarrassment there. And it's like, yeah.

Balancing Roles and Creating Secure Attachments

Courtney Brame: Can we talk a little bit about that? Uh the word choice is what stands out. Again, just choosing your husband every day. And there's something about I think I use this for myself when I talk about beating the game and then being able to go on side quests, right?

00:53:22 Courtney Brame: like you've got your you've you've done the thing. You have the family, you have the husband, and y'all are so secure with one another that you're able and willing to have relationships outside of your marriage, like with each other, apart from each other. And so how does that make it seems like there's pressure and expectations or maybe like unconsciously trying to navigate another person's expectations for them and that that's reducing your ability to just be present with whatever the relationship is, right? Without their just being, okay, yeah, you want to label it lustful. But one of the things again that we talk about with stigma and identity, right, is this over identification of blank, right? So in this case, it might be rather than being present overidentifying as a wife and just like, oh, but I'm a wife. I'm not supposed to also be a girlfriend. Like I'm supposed to, you know what I'm saying? Like is that making sense?

00:54:30 Guest: Yeah, that was Yeah, that was a Yeah, that was uh my experience, you know, kind of the overidentification of being a wife and what does that mean? And um you know, this uh not allowing myself to just be present with what the experience was. Having to be quick to label it, name it, make it, you know, make it this or make it that to try to make it make sense either one way or another, you know, for whoever's expectations. my own whatever all of that. So, yes, absolutely. It was all of that… all of that resonates. Um and also, and this is um sometimes I'm like h sometimes it's hard to talk about my relationship with Wayne and our experience with nonmonogamy because it's 22 years and when I tell one, it could even be a small part although this was a big part. there's like so many other so much other background information that sometimes I feel like ah maybe this you know if this background was if I shared this maybe it you know help to make more sense but um it's hard to do that you know in such a small amount of time but

Courtney Brame: Does the fact that Wayne has always been there do you think that that contributes to anything in regards to how much capacity you have for other relationships.

00:55:55 Courtney Brame: And I asked this because I think that what I see is that people who've been in their longest term relationships, there's so much of an anchor, so much security that it also allows for the freedom to be able to explore and maybe get your heart broken and know that at the end of the day like you got home base to come back to. Whereas there's not like the traumatization of the s***** experiences that people have with the dating world being what kind of shapes the way that you engage for the sake of finding your person, right? So, do you think that there's anything to be said for like you not having any or many jaded experiences that shape how you view Wayne? Whereas with Wayne, your husband, that kind of sets the bar and expectations. Really? Not expectations, but just sets the standard for what you do and don't deal with.

Guest: Yeah. Absolutely. It has it. It definitely can be that like safe net, that safe space that, you know, that opportunity to go out and explore because I kind of have this, you know, um, like almost this safe haven here or whatnot with Wayne, but we had to get to that, you know, and um, even though we were nonmonogamous, even though we had been together for I mean, at this time, like kind of the stories that I'm telling or the little bit that I've been sharing.

00:57:30 Guest: This was like maybe I don't know 2016 I almost you know between 7 to 10 years ago or whatever. Um and so we were yeah we we even though we had that level of much experience we still were also dealing with a lot of kind of a monogamous ways within our nonmonogamy and trying to kind of figure all of that out. So yeah, we had to, we had to get there. We're in a much more secure place today, but at that point, you know, we were still working our way there. And why I mentioned kind of like the extra background information and all that good stuff was because, you know, at that time we shifted from doing this more swinging together, you doing everything together experience um into kind of dating and exploring separately. A big part of that um was kind of our experience and struggle with um post like my me experiencing postpartum depression and you know kind of the shifts in our in our sex life and you know um and so we leaned into that and I wouldn't say we were like yeah let's do this you know it was a little bit there was some hesitation There it was a little there was a little reluctance there on both of our parts,

00:59:00 Guest: but we were like maybe this is a path that we can explore in our relationship. Maybe we can kind of open things up and not restrict ourselves to exploring and experiencing things just together, you know. And so that was kind of a little bit messy at first, too. But um there was kind of that and then you know broken agreements and in the mix as well with that first experience, you know. Um, and so there were a lot of these layers that we were experiencing all at once that felt pretty chaotic that essentially blew the relationship up, but then was kind of the path for us to being more secure today.

Courtney Brame: How long have you been openly nonmonogamous like through the Instagram pages?

Guest: Um I would say maybe around like pandemic time I think is when I started the page. Yeah. So maybe like

Courtney Brame: Has that influenced anything like how you show up or how you practice nonmonogamy or the way that you share?

01:00:16 Courtney Brame: Is there any sort of pressure to get it right or to only share certain things?

Guest: Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Um although I try to like I always see I always want to speak to the hard parts you know and speak to the messy parts and sometimes I think I even maybe do it too I don't want to say too much but like yeah lean into that side and um I don't know maybe kind of like as an overcompensation to make sure that I'm not you know romanticizing us and nonmonogamy and all of that good stuff so I could sometimes even, you know, celebrate it a little bit more, celebrate kind of these um aspects of us. But yeah, absolutely. There's definitely some pressure there often. Um Wayne and I experienced that a lot in, you know, at first and kind of when we first started to put things out there, um trying to navigate like when we were in our s*** and really dealing with some stuff and then still trying to make content and still trying to work with people. And that was like one of the hardest things for me. That felt so hard. Um but yeah, it's been a journey to navigate like how do we do that? How much do we share? When do we share? You know, because even though we want to be authentic and real when you're in it, it doesn't always feel like the best time to be, you know, authentically and like openly sharing what we were going through because we hadn’t given ourselves time to process these things. Yeah, it’s tricky, it can be tricky for sure.

Conclusion: Authenticity and Honoring the Present

Courtney Brame: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I appreciate getting to hear like so much of your experience, and that also the I think one of the biggest take aways for me personally is the spiritual component it is a shit show and I think everything can be a spiritual practice or a presence practice for anyone who doesn’t like that word um looking at how your relationships are mirrors in your face and how our identities can really be something that puts who we think we are in our face and then we kinda have to address it and we either address it or avoid it right. So we either bring presence to that engagement being something that allows for us to find who we are. When you talk about that three months where it seems like that was the outcome of burnout, it makes me think about how important it is that “we take care of ourselves’, because it’s not always about going to get a massage and our nails done, but also curating spaces where we can see ourselves as well as be seen. I think that identity validation is probably one of the the thing that people are going… to it's going to be the thing that people are going is a thing that people are going to hear me say more than anything else. And I'm experiencing that right now for myself as I moved back home to St. Louis, Missouri. And I was there and I got to let things out that needed to be let out. And I recognized a heavy imbalance in my life of work, work, work, work, work. And there wasn't any time for rest. There wasn't any time for play. And when I got back home, it was very difficult for me to work. So all I could do was rest.

Courtney Brame: Right? And in that, I think that I got to see myself outside of the identification with work. And in doing so, it was like, well, what else is important to me? Oh, rest. What else is important to me? Oh, play. And finding that trifecta of work, rest, play is what I think was the overall message for me uh coming out of burnout. And so it's very it's really cool to hear like your experience of like finding that you're challenged even in your relationships to see yourself and be yourself because I very much can relate to that experience myself and I hope that that's you know that maybe other people have gotten other things out of our time together and being able to share here. Um, but that's what I got and I wanted to make sure you knew that and also I want to just hold the space for you to share any final thoughts and let people know how they can connect with you.

Gues: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing what you got out of it and for making the connection to your own experiences. Um, yeah, I hope I, hope some people can get something good out of this. Um, I do. I think my final thoughts is uh that I want to have an honest moment here. I imagined that we would after this after you stopped recording that we would be like, "So, how was it? How did it go?" And then I'd be like, "Oh, it was okay." You know, there were moments where I just felt a little thrown off… not anything that you did or said, you know, just me myself just feeling a little self-conscious and just kind of like ah this is, you know, this one didn't go as I was imagining it would in my head and just like ah feeling a little self-conscious or whatnot. And I was like, you know what, don't wait till after we stop recording to say that.

Guest: Maybe you just share it here. And so that's what I wanted to do is just kind of just I don't know acknowledge with you as part of the show that that um yeah just that mirror stuff that s*** that stuff that I was talking about like was happening here you know and it was like oh my gosh Melissa you're babbling you're not making sense you're… you know it's like this I can't just be sometimes right it's just like It's hard to just be present and to just allow and to just feel and to just let it be and to say it's like this I'm in my head often, you know? And so I know that whoever can relate. It's like I don't have to name it anything or whatever. They're just going to hear this one very moment and they're going to be like, "Damn, I like her." Or, "Yes, I feel that too. I know exactly what she's talking about." even though she may not be saying a very clear thing.

Guest: And I just wanted to use this moment to just for myself, for me to be like “Melissa, wow, yeah, that was hard for you”. This interview was hard for you, and I'm probably going to be thinking about it for the next hour after this. You're like, dang it, it's not how I wanted it to go, but it's fine. And I wanted to let it be. And you know and just thank myself for still showing up and continuing with this um interview with you. So, thank you.

Courtney Brame: Thank you. All right. Now, how can people connect with you?

Guest: Uh you can find me um @shades_of_nominogamy on Instagram is probably the best way to reach me.

Courtney Brame: Yeah. All right. Um, if you can stick around for a little bit, we can debrief afterwards. But I'll go ahead and close this out. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People.

Courtney Brame: Please like, rate, review, share, subscribe to, donate to this nonprofit organization, this podcast. Uh, we are doing what we can to minimize stigma in all aspects of life. And we do so through presence. Just uh, how you heard uh, me again. I'm going to keep saying, identity validation. I always mentioned that when I started this, I would consistently see that 36% of people with herpes were experiencing suicide ideation as a result of their diagnosis. And what I've learned over the years is that it's been an invalidation of identity and over identification with sexuality and their sexual health status that has led to this. And what this space does is validate these people's identities and give them hope for being able to find wholeness amongst that fragmentation that stigma causes. So, uh, supporting us looks like doing that. If you're somebody who has access to grants, if you write grants, if you got a fund of some sort, if your job is giving out donations or something, help me.

Courtney Brame: Help me. All right. So, um yeah, I will well y'all will hear from me next week. Um if you haven't already, please sign up for the newsletter. We have weekly herp No, not weekly. We have weekly Something Positive for Positive People events. Mondays at 7:30 p.m. Central time. The stigma support group is Monday. The men's purpose group is on the second Monday. Third Monday, I rest or move something around in the event that I'm traveling. And then the fourth Monday is usually like some type of a live thing. Uh so we're going to make this happen. Um so stay on the newsletter for updates on that and when to beware. I'm trying to do these Tuesday yoga classes, but it's a little hard when nobody shows up. So I need y'all to express some interest or something. Let me let me know what y'all trying to do. All right, but till next time, stay present. All right.

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