SPFPP 227: Hanging Herpes Over my Head
Trigger Warnings of abuse, sexual assault, and some new revelations our guest Tammy had during our discussion.
This can be challenging to listen to, so I encourage you to take care of yourself as you listen, or honestly maybe skip this one altogether. Abuse looks a variety of ways and what we discuss here are some identifiers of potential abuse. Again, trigger warning, abuse.
Transcription:
Something Positive for Positive People Episode 227: Hanging Herpes Over My Head April 22, 2022
Courtney: Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. And this is my first recording with a person since January. I don't think I've done a recording since January. And here we are. It's April 3, 2022. So, yeah. I'm back into it. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non-profit organization currently working through the identity of exactly what it's going to be. It is, according to the Instagram following of at H on my chest [@honmychest], a bunch of different things: suicide prevention--I have to add awareness to the end of that for legal purposes now, I just learned this--it's also herpes communication and sexual health communication. It's being able to share the experiences of people navigating S T I stigma, it's the emphasis of sexual health and mental health and S T I minimization, and, more importantly, I guess, it's me [chuckles]. I am the organization. I was sitting with and trying to identify different ways of explaining the organization. I'm working on putting this business plan together, and essentially, the business of Something Positive for Positive People, for it to continue to operate the services that it offers, for me to talk to people, basically. I talk to people. And I have to make that complex enough as a business plan. And it's killing me, I'm struggling [laughs]. I sat in front of the computer and I wrote out all the stuff that I do and I was like, "Okay, well, this isn't a business." It's real tricky. It's really tricky. The podcast itself is a major useful resource, but the components of what I do as far as like speaking at conferences and talking about sex education and its interconnectedness between how we receive our sex ed and then how people process an S T I diagnosis, these aren't things that you can make tangible. I mean, you can hire people and pay them for positions to explain things, but I also recognize that after five years of interviewing people and being open about my S T I status, I think it would take people who have already done this kind of work and demonstrated commitment and consistency and vulnerability and rapport with this community with the audience that's being served in order for this to actually be a business. So I'm working on it because this is someone who wants to give me money to support Something Positive for Positive People and its mission, but I'm very much like, "Listen, I don't know what this is going to look like in five years. I cannot project or predict that. What I can say is I know that I just want to make it to the next week of podcast recordings [laughs]." So I got a job so it's not like I'm worried about paying myself. I haven't paid myself in five years of running this, so it would be cool to be able to just interview, teach yoga, and talk about, you know, the stuff that I'm doing and being able to talk with people and then be able to facilitate support groups and rent out spaces, do live podcast recordings and all. But I mean, there's this saying we got: If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and it's actually working out. But anyway, this podcast episode isn't about me. It's about you, Tammy, how you doing?
Tammy: I'm fantastic. Thank you so much for having me.
Courtney: Hey, no, I appreciate you reaching out! I'm going to try and talk as little as possible. I find that when I just listen, there are better podcast episodes. I don't want to like throw my experiences in between yours so this is going to be like a new thing for me. I would like for you to share just how we connected and what encouraged you to reach out and I'll jump in whenever you stop talking.
Tammy: Okay, sounds good. All right. Where do I start? So basically, I've been following Courtney and Something Positive for Positive People, H on my chest [@honmychest] on Instagram. And I've been positive for a while now. And for a really long time, I was just like, really ashamed and went through a lot and was kind of closed off. You know, I'm open but yet I'm still a very private person, obviously. And basically, there's this guy who I've known for a while and he was just like, "Hey, I really like you." And I was like, "Okay, you seem cool." But I was very standoffish and he called me one day and was just like, "Hey, can I ask you something? And I really hope you don't get upset with me." And he, I guess, heard I was positive or possibly positive through someone else. I still don't know who it is. But you know, it is what it is. So he was just like, "Is this true or not?" And I was like, "Yeah, it's true. I'm not going to lie to you." I wasn't sure if we were going to hook up or not, but I have respect for him and his body. And he's always been a really good person to me so I was like, the hell with it, I'll be totally honest with him. And he's just like, "I'm really happy you were honest with me. I've kind of known for a while, but I wanted to confirm that. I don't look at you any differently." And it was just really nice. And basically, I felt really inspired by all of that. So I messaged the whole thing to Courtney and I was like, "This was such a positive experience." I always thought I would be shamed or called gross or something. And it was just really nice. To the people who are listening who either have this diagnosis or something along the lines or they're just feeling shame in general, it's really hard to be vulnerable. It is one of the--I'm sorry, I might cuss a little bit on this thing, I kind of cuss a lot [chuckles]--it is fucking difficult. And sometimes you do have to take a chance. It can go one of two ways, it can go really well or it can come bite you in the ass. Not to sound basic, but you never know if you don't try.
Courtney: In hindsight, whoever it is that knew about your status is obviously someone that you told. Do you regret the way that he found out that you had herpes or would you rather have been the one to initiate the conversation and tell him it yourself?
Tammy: It's honestly kind of a mixture because I was going to tell him but I was so nervous I kept checking out. Every time I would try to even initiate it I'd just be like, "Oh, never mind, I gotta go" kind of a thing. I was just being a damn coward [chuckles]. But I'm actually kind of glad he initiated it first because I didn't know where to start at this point. Because I was like, "Okay, here's this guy like, but I'm still not sure about it and my feelings are kind of complicated." Because also what I told Courtney, you know, I have my issues. I'm currently in therapy, I'm recently getting out of an abusive marriage, and I have some mental illnesses. I have depression, anxiety, and I do have P T S D. So it's really hard for me to trust people and also for people to see me when I have a panic attack or an episode or anything like that. It's not easy. I have to surround myself with good people who I can trust and kind of weed out the bad apples. But you know, sometimes you don't always know who the good and the bad are so it's trial and error.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm. You received a diagnosis for depression, anxiety, P T S D, right? Tammy: Yes.
Courtney: Out of curiosity, was there a difference between your herpes diagnosis and the receiving your diagnosis for your mental health status?
Tammy: Okay, so I'm just trying to like get this all out. So like--
Courtney: And also, you don't--
Tammy: --down a little bit for me?
Courtney: I don't think I said this to you, but I can edit things. So if you say something and you don't like the way that you worded it, you can say, "Pause, I don't like how I said that." And then you can say what you want to say. But to reword that, the question is, how did you receive and process your diagnosis? How did you respond to your herpes diagnosis and then a diagnosis from mental health professionals in regards to your mental health status? Was there a difference between your response to, "I have herpes" and your response to, "I have depression, anxiety, and P T S D?"
Tammy: Okay, all right. Yeah. Buckle up. So I received my [chuckles] herpes diagnosis, let's just say a while ago. Honestly, it was very it was a very cold experience. Because I mean, don't get me wrong, I get it, doctors have a lot to do and they got bigger fish to fry but just the way it was given to me it was basically like, "Hey, you have this." And the next thing you know I'd be crying and they would just walk out the room and I'd just be alone. I'm like, okay, maybe some people like to cry alone, but they didn't try to comfort me, they just kind of stared at me. Maybe they felt awkward. Yeah, but I don't know. I'm a comforter kind of person. I like to comfort people when they're upset or something's going on, but it was just kind of a cold experience. And I felt a lot of shame walking out of there. They didn't really tell me any resources, you know what I mean? I basically had to find support groups or threads or something like that and do it all on my own. And I suffered really for a long time and a lot of people don't think about that. And so when I got my diagnosis for depression, anxiety, and P T S D, that was a slow kind of build-up because it was just years basically of abuse and just, life kicking the ever-living shit out of me. I just thought that because the way I grew up is like, that didn't exist, mental health was not a thing you talked about. Like it's just, "Okay, a person is just going through a tough time, they'll get over it." No, that's not the case. So like, how I grew up, they just they never really talked about it and you know, when a lot of stuff started happening to me and everything, it just kind of hit me like a freight train. Just like a build-up of everything. You know how some people will be like, "Hey, that person snapped for no reason." No, it was not for no reason. It was a build of bullshit over and over and over. I mean, granted, it's not always justified, them acting violent. Usually, it's not, obviously, but just it's a build-up of frustration and anxiety and abuse, and just everything. Sometimes people have just had enough and they snap. And that's the thing like, why do people wait until it's almost too late? No! Get help beforehand! But I understand though, it's not always easy asking for help. I didn't actually ask for help, I was kind of pushed towards the direction because I had a really bad--it's going to get real personal and cut me off if it's too much, please. So I mentioned in my message to Courtney that I have a history of being domestically abused, and sexually assaulted, and I had to go get a pap smear one day to make sure everything was good under the hood. And I didn't tell the doctor because I was embarrassed but whenever I am in that position to get swabbed, I immediately start having a panic attack, I start crying, I start shaking and it's just being that vulnerable. It just really triggers me really bad. I'm trying not to tear up right now because just thinking about it gives me anxiety.
Courtney: If you need a break also, just tell me you need a break, okay? Tammy: Okay, I'm alright. I just...
Courtney: Just take care of yourself alright?
Tammy: Yeah. I just need people to know that there's help out there. So I started having this really bad panic attack. And the doctor actually showed me compassion. I was just like, "I'll be fine, I know you have other appointments to go to." And she just looks at me, she's like, "This is your appointment." And she asked me what happened to me because obviously, she knew something was wrong. And she's like, "Listen, I'm going to give you the name of a really good therapist" or a good facility that you know, positions out therapists. Hopefully, you know what I mean. Sorry, my words are getting a little jumbled. And I finally got some help and it was just so nice to have someone actually be compassionate. Basically, to sum up your question that you asked earlier, yeah, it was a mass difference.
Courtney: On the podcast, the platform, Something Positive for Positive People as a whole, I say sexual health is mental health. And I believe that what happened was you received your herpes diagnosis from a health care provider or practitioner who didn't look at you like someone who was having a response to a physical situation. They looked at you and thought, "Oh, you had sex and this is what happens when you have sex. In accordance with the things that the C D C says for you to do, you must have not listened to the C D C and that's why this happened to you." So no empathy, no sympathy, no compassion, you don't get any of that. Whereas with your health care provider who saw providing preventive care to you in relation to your reproductive system, they were able to see that there was a human having a response to their being in contact with your genitals. And so for your nurse, for your provider, to have asked you, "Hey, what's going on?" I think even that question, to meet someone with curiosity, is something that completely can alleviate the discomfort and the harm that is done simply by omitting compassion, empathy, sympathy toward the patient. I believe that the providers can, through this sexual health as mental health lens, be able to respond to the whole person, rather than the sexual part of a person. Because you can't tell me at this point in 2022 that we don't see bias from not just medical professionals, but people. People in general have their own internal bias. So for that health care provider to be in that role, but also step out of the role of professional practitioner into who they are outside of the office hours, which is maybe someone who [thinks], "Oh, herpes is gross. The only people I know who have herpes are these kinds of people. I'm uncomfortable. Let me get out of here. This person will be fine processing their diagnosis on their own." It's your experience in reacting to a diagnosis, essentially, one way and then how it really registered after processing for you to have gotten to the point of being offered support that was years--or depending on how much time passed between your diagnosis and your Pap smear--that was however much time between you even being offered the kind of help you actually needed. Because when you were crying in that moment, what would have happened? How much would you have healed, if you will, through having had access to a therapist and mental health services when you were in that office crying because of your herpes diagnosis? Then you would have been able to seek treatment and support and help and healing for that. Now, however much time passed between your diagnosis and that Pap smear, whatever built up on top of that, also needed to be addressed and these were probably things that you would have been equipped with tools in order to better navigate those situations had the health care provider simply met you with curiosity upon diagnosis.
Tammy: I agree 100 percent.
Courtney: I feel like I rambled through that a bit. There was no way for me to make that concise. So I [laughs] got nothing for you there. I would like to speak more about your abusive marriage because I think that that's a very, very relatable topic here. Even if it doesn't get to the point of marriage for some people, if they're just in an abusive relationship, I think that there's a lot to be learned for anyone who has gotten out of any kind of an abusive relationship, because in hindsight, I'm sure you can elaborate on this more, but I'm curious to know how the relationship started. How did S T Is--or you having herpes at all--impact the marriage or the relationship? And then I'd like to know what were things that were done so that we can speak to those things. So if someone's listening and they're in an abusive relationship, or they know someone who's in an abusive relationship, or even if it's on the trajectory of marriage, or if they are in a marriage, I would like for them to be able to take your experience, compare it to theirs and be able to say, "I need to get out of here." And also know how to get out of here. So if you can just go through the story of that marriage from just start to finish, then I'll come in as needed and then facilitate the conversation or ask for elaboration wherever it's needed. Is that okay?
Tammy: Sounds good.
Courtney: All right. Floor's yours.
Tammy: All right, so I met my, well soon-to-be-ex, we're still dealing with paperwork and whatnot. So I met him about...how long's it been now? I want to say three and a half, almost four years ago. And it started out okay, pretty good you know, typical honeymoon phase and everything. And we all had our baggage. He was going through some legal stuff and basically, he ended up going to jail for a few months. You know, I saw the good person I thought he was so I stayed. That should have been an immediate red flag but oh no, I wanted to see the good! [chuckles] Yeah, so we...oh, god, so he knew about my diagnosis, again, through someone else. Yeah, I was not a fan of that. I ended up not being friends with her because...[chuckles] I'm not going to go too much into detail, but basically, she...I don't think she's a healthcare provider anymore, but basically, she had violated HIPAA laws. I don't know exactly how she did it. Because apparently, she told him she looked at a paper and saw that I had it and told him and was talking shit behind my back. Oh, there's so much drama! I swear I can read a damn soap opera. I don't even know how I'm gonna be able to cover all of it. But...where was I? [chuckles]
Courtney: We were at the...he was in jail.
Tammy: He was in jail. He got out a few months later. I was like, "Okay, we're going to start our life together and everything." And with my job, I'm required to go out of town a lot. And sometimes it's very last minute because, you know, slave to the dollar. And so we finally started to settle down where we needed to live. I was just really frustrated a lot because I would come home and the house would be a wreck and like, our dogs would just go in our house and I was just annoyed because sometimes he would have a job and sometimes he wouldn't. Basically, the household responsibilities were not shared equally. And a lot of people don't realize about financial abuse. It's not--
Courtney: Talk to me.
Tammy: --brought up enough.
Courtney: Talk to me about that.
Tammy: So...luckily, I was very fortunate and I had some money saved up, but my soon-to-be-ex--well, I'm just going to call him my ex--my ex, whenever he would get upset with me or something he would be like, "Yeah, I'm just gonna leave and stay at someone else's house for a little bit and I'm not helping to pay for the bills." He'd pick and choose when he'd want to do that. Or there was this one time when he was getting his vehicle. He wanted me to cosign on it and I told him no because I didn't feel comfortable with that because, one, he's not very good with money. And two, if he screws up on a payment, that's my credit on the line. So I told him, no, and he got really, really defensive and was screaming at me, he was so pissed and I'm just like, okay, yeah, that's gonna make me want to do it more, throwing a temper tantrum! Sorry, I feel like I'm getting off track. But no, to anyone who's listening, financial abuse, that's a damn thing. And I've known people who've gone through it way worse than I have and it took them years to recover. Like that's no joke.
Courtney: The way that you described it sounds different than I've heard it. And I'm appreciative of you sharing this side of it because I considered financial abuse to be, "Oh, you're buying me things so I'm going to keep asking for things and do so in an abusive way. I'm going to continue to take from you." But in this case, it sounds a lot like...how can I describe it? So based on what I heard, what I'm envisioning is taking advantage of you for your resources that you have as a result of your finances. So he had a place to stay, he had electricity, WiFi, food, those kinds of things. And I guess whenever a time came, where bills were due, he would just be like, "Oh, you know what, I'm just gonna go stay somewhere else for a few days." You still had to pay those bills no matter what, whether he was there or not. So, therefore, he could disappear long enough for the bills to have been paid and then come back: "Heyyy! Oh, okay, the coast is clear? I got another 26 days or so to where I can just be here and do the same thing." So seeing this cycle from that angle looks a lot different. It's not a matter of, "Hey, I need this" and then using the money for something else. Financial abuse also looks the way that you just described it.
Tammy: There's a lot more to it, but I figured that was the most important point to it. A lot of people don't talk about it as much. I think I saw maybe one commercial one time and I was just like, "That's a thing?? There are so many different kinds of abuse that we don't even realize." This is going to sound so freakin dumb, but I didn't know what gaslighting was until maybe four or five years ago. And you want to know how I found out?
Courtney: Instagram.
Tammy: No!
Courtney: Oh.
Tammy: Watching...do you like American Horror Story?
Courtney: Oh! I've seen it but I haven't kept up with it beyond whatever season it was that I watched with someone.
Tammy: It actually was the first season, it was the first season of American Horror Story. I remember she was like, "Are you trying to gaslight me?" And I turned to my friend who was one of the smartest people I know and I was like, "What the hell does gaslighting mean?" And she explained it I was like, "Wait, there's a term for that??"
Courtney: [chuckles] Yup! I didn't learn it till I was 30.
Tammy: Right? I was like, "Oh my god, there are words for these things!"
Courtney: Yup. So outside of the financial abuse that you experienced, what else was there? So we can look at behaviors associated with the financial abuse but there was still something that made you marry this guy.
Tammy: So he was so sweet at first and so compassionate at first and he didn't care about my diagnosis. He didn't care. He was like, "I like you for you" kind of a thing. And it just seems like over time, mostly as soon as we got married, it just seems like he gave up trying to be a good person and it was a slow decline. And it took me a long time to realize that I was abused because I just made bullshit ass excuses for it. I was like, "Oh, he's just tired" or "He's just frustrated" and everything. But you know, if he didn't get his way he would get really upset and really angry and start screaming at me. And there were a couple times he actually used my herpes diagnosis against me.
Courtney: How so?
Tammy: Because...okay, it's going to get real personal up in--well, I already screwed the pooch on that one, I already got personal [chuckles]. Basically, we were having sex...and you know, obviously, we knew beforehand that I had herpes. And I would always use protection and sometimes I would take Valtrex if....you know sometimes you tingle a little bit? So I would take it as a precautionary but other times I wouldn't because I was like, "Okay, I feel fine." So we would use protection and there was this one time he took it off and I'm just like, "Don't do that! No! You could get it! It doesn't matter if I'm not having one, you took the rubber off." He's like, "I don't care, I love you, it is what it is." And then other times, he'd be upset with me. He's like, "I have it because of you!" And I'm just like, " I didn't make you take the condom off! I told you no! I told you what the fuck could happen. In his mind, he's always the victim. And it's always someone else's problem.
Courtney: And this is sexual assault. He took the condom off you told him no. Regardless of your reasoning for it being, "I don't want to increase your risk of getting herpes from me." He still proceeded and while a person who is in that moment might be like, "Aww! He doesn't care! He loves me." No, that's another form of sexual assault. That's a consent violation. You asked for something and that person disregarded your request and continued to do what it was that they wanted to do. So were you aware of that being a sexual assault or were you speaking about something else in regards to your experience with sexual assault too?
Tammy: No, that was something completely different. No. Because I didn't know that...technically was a form of...I mean I know stealthing is a thing. So was this, I mean--
Courtney: This wasn't stealthing because you knew about it, but it's the fact you said, "No, I would like for you to wear a condom." And for him to [say], "Oh, but oh, I love you. It's okay." And then proceed. That's where the assault comes in. And there's a gray area there because your perception of it could be, "Oh, well, that's really sweet of him. He doesn't care. He really likes me." But then I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like that's manipulation for sure. I don't know whether or not it falls under the category of gaslighting, but to use the niceness and kindness in a way to get what he wants and then for you to have just...I mean, I don't know if you were like, "No, I don't want this." Or if you were just like, "Oh, well, I guess." Regardless, there was that violation of consent and I'm making an assumption here, but based on the kind of person that you've described him to be, he probably just took the condom off, and before you could even say no, he probably started having sex with you.
Tammy: I mean...it was...yeah, kinda. I just didn't really even categorize like, sorry, my mind is a little blown right now. Like I didn't even categorize that. I just thought he was just being you know, I mostly thought maybe it might be violating a boundary. I didn't, I didn't. I didn't think it'd be categorizing it as sexual assault. WOW, I feel like a dumbass.
Courtney: No, stop! This is what we're here for because it's also something that I wouldn't have categorized as. I worked in sales for a good amount of time and no never meant no. That's what has been programmed into me. No just meant: "Ask later. Try harder. Oh, they're not saying no to the overall sale. They're saying no to the way that I'm asking." Right? So that kind of culture in the workplace naturally is going to apply in different areas of life. So if you're not someone who is familiar with consent and understanding of what you know, no, actually meaning no, and meaning, "Alright! I'm not pushing anymore," then you're going to be someone who can, by default, just continue to go for that. And if you're on the other end of that, and you're not aware that, to salespeople, no doesn't mean no and you just are meeting them with resistance like you're gonna hit that sales fatigue, if you will, to where eventually you're just going to be beat down. So imagine in the sales setting, if you're selling widgets, and you--or if you're buying widgets, you're looking for someone who's going to sell you widgets because you want to buy them. You got ten different salespeople, the one who is the quote "kindest"--everybody's widgets are the same--but you're going to purchase from the one that you like the most. And you might just have a little bit of resistance to something maybe the fact that it's a long-term contract, right? But if that person's like, "Oh, well, come on, I will throw in this thing," or something like that, it's kind of the equivalent. There's a better way of wording this, this is just really on the fly. But looking at it from a sales perspective, and sex--like in sales, that's okay, because that's a business context--and sex, that's not okay because we're in the realm of violating consent. You're not the first person to have this kind of eye-opening on the podcast, mid-question and be like, "Oh, was it?" And I don't mean to challenge or disregard any of your experiences in that way, but this is just an added perspective to be had to the situation. And again, we're doing this for everybody who's listening. Because that, I believe that is a thing, where you meet someone with resistance, and then they resist your resistance, and you just kind of like, "Oh, okay, well, here we are." So to have that maybe that's something that you would want to explore more in therapy. But for people who are listening, same. And if you have that paralleled experience I hope that this is or was something that was useful.
Tammy: Yeah. Just--
Courtney: Did that give you time to kind of process a little bit? [laughs]
Tammy: A little bit, my mind is still kind of blown. Ohhhh, you ever just look back and you're just like, "How did I miss those flags? How did I miss all those red flags?"
Courtney: Listen, hey, we can have a whole tangent about that, in my experience. I just had a realization about a pattern that I had and a mistake that I was making in seeking partners and relationships, and now I've fixed it in my life has been amazing ever since. I told you about how my Friday night went! [laughs]
Tammy: Yes, sir!
Courtney: So yeah. Moving forward, I can give you a break from that bit of the discussion. You mentioned this new person that you're seeing and how he approached you and he was okay with your diagnosis. I have two questions. One is a yes or no. Is this the first person that you met since your divorce?
Tammy: No.
Courtney: Okay. Have you had any experiences like you've had with this new person in terms of someone being receptive to your disclosure? They were okay with moving forward after you've disclosed it to him?
Tammy: Well, so the other person who I met after everything, they had it too. Courtney: Did you meet them out in the wild or did you meet them on a dating site or anything? Tammy: Dating site.
Courtney: Was it that one dating site that we won't mention on here?
Tammy: Yup!
Courtney: Alright! [laughs] And--
Tammy: I just mostly didn't want to deal with the whole conversation and I'm just like okay, and I took all the precautions. I made sure that when I was talking to people, I never gave them my real phone number in case they were weirdos. I met some great people, but then I met some people like, "No wonder you're single!"
Courtney: Uh-huh! People have this experience with that site. I've recognized this and will speak to this briefly, and by briefly I'm going to put a little bit of a timer on it because I think this can run wild a bit but it's very important. Some people asked me my opinion on the dating sites for people with herpes and to be completely honest...it depends on what your intention is going in. If your intention is, "I really, right now, just don't want to give somebody else herpes," then that makes sense. If your intention is, "I have herpes now and I'm not going to be able to meet anyone else", you're gonna bring that desperation in there. And you're going to see a lot of predatory behavior. And if you're a new person who's diagnosed who made your way into that space, understand that you might not even be in the same proximity with someone. And the issues that you'd have in a long-distance relationship that would keep you from wanting to pursue a long-distance relationship are just going to be justified by the fact that there's herpes involved. Like, if you didn't have herpes, would you want a long-distance relationship with someone? Then you have the kinds of people who are like, "Oh, well, we both got herpes, so we might as well be together. I'm the best you're gonna get" and have that sort of--
Tammy: Oh!
Courtney: Yeah, okay! I'll let you go because it sounds like I'm speaking to your experience a bit. Go [chuckles].
Tammy: It's just...oh, emotional damage [chuckles]. I think that was another thing that my ex did because he...Oh, god, so many things, but no, I think that was another thing. I think it was a way to guilt me, knowing that I was the one that gave it to him. Because he blamed me for it. He knew you knew the consequences! He took the rubber off! But it's my fault because I had in the first place. And oh, god. I'm sorry if I'm circling around, it's just a lot to wrap my head around.
Courtney: Listen, you're doing a human thing. This is a place for you to be human, alright?
Tammy: Okay. There would just be times when he was just like, "I like you for all of your flaws. You don't care about mine." The fact that he had a history of being in jail and everything but he would compare that to my herpes diagnosis without actually saying it out loud. But we both knew what he meant. It was the unspoken thing. He'd be like, "I have my flaws and you have yours." I know I'm not a perfect human being but I'm just like, "Are you really comparing those two?"
Courtney: I compared my herpes diagnosis to asthma with someone I met on Tinder. This was how I chose to disclose. She was explaining to me that she had chronic asthma and I was like, "Oh, yeah, you know, we all have our things. It's like when I found out I tested positive for herpes." And that was the end of the conversation, I didn't hear back [laughs].
Tammy: Ohhh, she was just like [laughs nervously]. She was just like, "I'm out."
Courtney: That was it! [chuckles] But that goes to show you just how easy it is to compare adversities. His criminal record, as subjective as that is, that's a bad thing. You don't want a criminal record. And as far as herpes goes, that's a bad thing. You don't want an S T I. Right? So to put those things in comparison with one another, it kind of makes sense for people who are in that space and looking at it that way. It's not something that should be compared at all. And you should be able to see the whole of a person just like you did. You saw him. You liked him. Yeah, he had a criminal record. We make mistakes. And you saw that and in his case, he was like, "Well, alright, well, you got herpes, blah, blah, blah." But for him to essentially be outside of himself, and--I don't know if he ever just was like, "I don't want to get herpes and I'm gonna take all of the precautions in order to prevent that from happening." But I know how, in the moment, when your blood flow goes down to your genital region, you're not yourself [chuckles] sometimes. And in his case, he was willing and accepting of the risk but also against your consent. You didn't want to put him at risk. And this sort of speaks to, also, how we don't want to give people herpes, but we don't control that. We do our best to minimize the possibilities but ultimately, people are making the decision by being with us that they're okay with the possibility of getting herpes. And so I hope that people don't allow for their partners to hang this over their head, "this" being the potential of exposure, because I've also heard people say, "Well, I'm willing to be with you and I might get herpes, so why can't you..." and then insert manipulative thing that they want from their partner.
Tammy: Yup! I don't understand why people think that's okay. Like, it's just, I don't know, it's just so wrong.
Courtney: I mean, I can tell you what I think and I really think that it has a lot to do with our early sex education. The pieces of sex education that are missing are in regards to understanding consent, knowing what it means to ask for what you need, and saying yes. Also knowing what no means and being able to respect and know that you can say no. And then also being able to identify healthy behavior, unethical behavior, abusive behavior, and then not abuse. And there's an accountability that's there as well, in a sense of knowing that if something goes wrong or if you are in an unethical or unhealthy, abusive relationship, to be able to go through this process, look at these resources and make your way out of that. And for people to see like, "Hey, dude, this is abusive behavior. Hey, person, this is abusive, you don't do this." And then understand that there are consequences to that. Learning that at an early age should be included in our sex education, because then our youth who's getting the information on what pregnancy and S T Is look like, they're also understanding how to manage and navigate relationships. We're not taught that. And so I blame the sex education system for this happening to you because this was something that we could have minimized the possibility of through you having received that education. I think that consent abiding, boundary upholding, healthy relationship-having youth develop into consent abiding, boundary respecting...I forgot the last thing I said, I tried to tie it all together and make it sound good, but they become adults that do the same things. And we're just not taught that because there's such an emphasis on pregnancy and S T Is and not having sex until further notice, but not right now, don't have sex until it's not our problem to deal with anymore is basically what the sex ed says. So--
Tammy: [groans]
Courtney: They did this to you!
Tammy: And especially toward women too.
Courtney: Yeah, for sure. I mean, with men, I don't necessarily know that there's as near as much information on what abuse looks like. I'm friends with some people who've experienced abuse from their female partners and there's no one talking about that either. Financial abuse, physical abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse. And if my friend didn't--yeah, I got one friend specifically--but if he didn't open up to me and tell me what was going on, I wouldn't have been able to be like, "Yo, that is abuse!" Because as a man, you know, we recognize abuse to be, "Well, I didn't hit you. I didn't hit you. I didn't hit you." And that's the extent of our knowledge of abuse. Right?
Tammy: Oh my god! Yeah! [groans in exasperation] There's so much too! Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but like--
Courtney: Mmm-mmm, no, this is your podcast! I'm filling in dead space while you...because you got a look on your face like, "Oh, shit, I didn't know that!" And I'm just like, "I'm going to keep talking until you want to step in [laughs]." Yeah, this is your podcast episode!
Tammy: My ex would say that all the time! He'd be like, "Well, I didn't hit you. And I didn't call you fat."
Courtney: Oh!
Tammy: I'm like, "So that makes you a good husband? Like, what the fuck?" Yeah, he would scream at me when he didn't get his way. He would scream at me and would just accuse me of cheating all the time. Like whenever I'd go out with my friends because at first, he was fine with it. Then he would just be like, "Where are you?" I remember I was trying to have a game night with a couple of my friends, I wasn't even gone two hours. And he made up some bullshit ass excuse and I'm just like, "I don't want to deal with this." And I just left and went home and I'm just like, "Good fucking god, I just wanted to have fun with my friends." It got to the point, and that's what a lot of people don't realize, you see the early signs before it escalates.
Courtney: Ooooh, tell me those.
Tammy: Okay, so he got really possessive. And then he didn't trust me anymore. And he just started saying some shit, plus I could--I was stupid as shit. The man was sexist as fuck too. He just started getting angry and being okay with screaming at me and getting angry. And he would use his mental illness as an excuse or the fact that he's been abused as an excuse and I'm like, here's the thing, I've had my fair share of fuckery happen to me, but that's not an excuse to be abusive to someone else, especially someone that loves you, deeply loves you. And it got so bad he started punching holes into stuff. Like, I don't have a door to one of my rooms in my home because there was a hole in it. And then he had like this fold-up table, and we got into a really bad argument one time. And he just started punching holes in it and I was terrified. I told him, "You need to leave I don't feel safe." And he made up some excuse. So basically, long story short, I tried to get a protective order. I served him with the papers, and he was pissed as fuck at me. And yeah, it didn't end up going in my favor because they made a...basically, it's really hard to get a protective order. That honestly scares the shit out of me more than anything because until you have your ass beat, they don't fucking care. At least that's what I've seen in the court systems. Our systems are so broken. Just like well, "He didn't hit you." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm trying to avoid that! He's punching holes into shit." I literally had recordings of him screaming at me. One of them was when we were in a moving vehicle when he was banging on the steering wheel screaming at me. And I'm like, "How is that not evidence that this man is going to harm me?" And I'm terrified of the fact that I had to leave my home for a month, [the home] I paid the bills for. I had to stay at my friend's house for a month. I'm like, "I'm showing you the signs! I'm telling you what I'm going through, help me!" I've tried to get a police escort to bring back to the house to get my stuff. They basically told me to fuck off. It baffles me that the system now, it is 2022 and there are no laws, there's nothing--
Courtney: I wonder--
Tammy: --like yeah, there are support groups but like...
Courtney: That's it. Yup. I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that often what I've seen in my experience is that women will go through the process of calling the police, police show up and they're ready to escort the man out of the place and then the woman won't press charges and we're talking particularly heterosexual relationships. And the police not, you know, having gone through that process and then only for him to be back in the place and for them to get that same call in another week or so. So the fact that we essentially don't believe survivors, with this element of they're not being followed through on the processes that have been initiated by the person who is the survivor of the domestic abuse, [I wonder] if it's losing or lost its impact to the point where [law enforcement thinks], "Alright, because so many women are not following through...if they hit them, then that's when we're going to take them seriously." If that makes sense. Does that make sense at all how I tried to explain that?
Tammy: I understand where you're coming from and how the law would see it that way, but it just breaks my heart that it has to even get to that point because the psychological damage is already fucking done.
Courtney: Yeah, and I'm recognizing just how hard it would be even to prove that there's a trajectory for getting to a point of physical abuse. Like how many times can you leave your home or patch up a hole or hear about someone's mental illness or have your herpes diagnosis hung over your head, deal with the financial abuse? How will we be able to have reform in the legal system to identify abusive behavior early enough? I do think that there's a too early but early enough to where you'll be able to have some sort of support and help and resources available to you. Because yeah, the support groups, that's cool, but there is no power behind the support groups in a legal sense. So you go in there and you tell these people in the support group all of these things are happening and they're like, "Girl, get out of there, he's about to beat the shit out of you. That's next." But you go to the legal system where all of these women, let's say it's a support group of 25 women and 24 out of 25 say, "This happened to me and then he beat my ass." You take that to the legal system, the court system they're like, "Well, wait till he hits you." And then they'll probably even ask, "Well did y'all file a complaint after he beat your ass?" And then that's kind of where the legal system is going to just be like, "Well, this is why we did this." Or they're going to be like, "Well, this is why we did this." And they'll find a way to justify it in either direction. It's messed up. It's not right. And there's, unfortunately, again, what we need is the elements of sex education to be included that I spoke about earlier. What's omitted from there, which is the ability to identify this abusive behavior and address it immediately and also understand what resources and support you have outside of that, in the event that you even think that you're being abused, and a point where if you look up and it's too late, you're able to be aware of these resources and then take action in accordance to wherever you are in the abuse cycle. And I hate to give this responsibility to women, but that's who it falls on in this case. When we look at it in a heterosexual relationship since it's one more thing that women have to be mindful of that women have to be proactive on. Because ain't no dude gonna be like, "Oh, I'm abusing this girl. Let me not do that." Right? Unfortunately, it's going to have to have consequences, and women or people who are on the other end of abuse who are receiving the abuse have to be aware of these resources and also be willing to use the resources, and that sucks. And I'm hoping that through emphasis on sexless sex education, which is something that Something Positive for Positive People is talking about--that I'm talking about--with anybody who will listen [chuckles], we're able to see through how you just shared your stories, just how influential this so you've just given me a framework to take into the criminal justice reform space, the social justice space and the domestic abuse space just with your story, and how much you shared. I understand that there's still some processing going on for you and I'm going to have some processing that happens even after this recording, but you've definitely given me a framework of being able to speak to this on behalf of someone who's gone through the process that you've gone through. So I appreciate you. Thank you so much. And we got a couple of minutes left. Is there anything that you want to conclude with or say here for the listeners?
Tammy: Okay. I'm trying to think of something intelligent to say.
Courtney: [laughs] Everything you're sharing is from your lived experience, your wisdom, so it's inherently intelligent, alright?
Tammy: Oh I like that. I like the way you worded that. I guess something I would say to the listeners is getting help is extremely difficult, and it's going to be a long, hard road, no matter what you've been through, but I've come so far to love myself because I hated myself for the longest time and I can honestly say now, I'm actually happy. And it's because I got help through therapy, I have a wonderful support system, wonderful friends, family, and just inspirational things like what Courtney is doing. Just how to like, know your worth, honey! Kind of a thing, strut your stuff, you are worth it. And shit, with everything that's been going on the past like two, two and a half years and everything, it's like, you know what? We finally see our damn worth. We finally see our worth after god knows how long. But yeah, I guess that's what I want to say. Know your worth! Get some help! And believe me, there will be some form of improvement and you will feel better about yourself.
Courtney: Yeah, thank you so much, Tammy. I appreciate you being here and for sharing your story. Out of curiosity if anybody reaches out to me because of this episode, and they just want to like talk to you whether it be to share their experience or to see if you are open to just talking to them or if they want to offer support, or elaborate more on some of the stuff that we talked about, are you open to that?
Tammy: Yeah!
Courtney: I can connect y'all privately.
Tammy: Yeah, that'd be great.
Courtney: Cool! All right. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like, rate, review, subscribe to, share this podcast. And you can donate to the nonprofit which is a 501c3 organization. This entire platform of the website W W W dot S P F P P dot org [www.spfp.org] is essentially a hub of sexual health communication, sex-positive resources, the media that I've done in the past. If you are curious or interested in my personal experience, or you want to know what Something Positive for Positive People is or has been up to go to the press page, and you will see where various people have interviewed me or articles that Something Positive for Positive People has been featured in. And I think that that's a really good framework to get an overview of where we are, depending on the date I guess [chuckles] because it keeps changing. I guess it's not that it changes, it just keeps becoming more refined along the way. I've always done a lot over the last five years of doing this, and I've just never had to put it into words, as I mentioned at the beginning of the recording. So yeah, all of these stories help. So if you're someone who wants to share your story, please don't hesitate to reach out to me. I can just share it in a screenshot or I can interview you and put your experience out there. Thank you for taking the time to listen and until next time, stay sex-positive.
