SPFPP 219: When it Gets Real
Jennifer and I discuss some intersections of identities as BIPOC folks who date outside our race. We speak to some of our experiences with fetishization and dating outside our race. Jenn, of Asian decent, speaks to the question she frequently gets, “Have you ever been with a (insert black or white) guy?”. We speak to the intention behind that question and its roots being in assessing safety. On the other hand, it could be a link to fetishization and objectification. Without safety, being a box for someone to check off in their list of experiences doesn’t feel good for anyone.
Knowing what it means to date outside your race/culture including how social dynamics play a role in how we interact with one another is something that can be assessed over time, or it can be discussed through direct communication. Jennifer speaks to developing an apathetic attitude toward some of the ignorance she’s experienced over the years, and decides who’s worth the emotional labor to call in for a conversation about why some things said are not okay.
We also discuss revisiting a herpes disclosure after a person has made the choice to move forward. Jennifer shares the perspective of having to acknowledge the realness of herpes which means having to tell partners she’s having an outbreak. Think of the comfort created over time. You’ve worked through the nerves that come with sharing your status to this potential partner. Time passes and you’re both in a good place about it then you have to pause sexual activities. The conversation kind of has to come up again. Jennifer shares how she’s navigated that with partners as well.
Jennifer is a demonstration of what someone creating allies in our community can look like just simply dissolving stigma within herself. From this place, we can outwardly express our beliefs and feelings about what it means to be someone living with herpes. We are the examples of allyship. Guests on this podcast, supporters of the non profit, people who just disclose and offer support to their friends who share their status with them, we’re all allies. We are redirecting the interpretation of what it means to be or be with someone living with herpes.
Episode Transcription
Something Positive for Positive People Episode 219: When It Gets Real March 4, 2022
Courtney: One of the things I love about hosting this podcast is the support that I get from people. When I do things that are outside of the box. People expect interviews with people with herpes, of course, because that's [chuckles] essentially how this was started: as a suicide prevention resource for people living with herpes. But to have been as supportive as you have throughout the course of Black History Month--and I've been speaking to Black guests and sharing my experience as a Black person, specifically as a heterosexual man-ly person, who occupies a lot of queer spaces. I love how receptive people have been. While it's not open, and you know, you're sharing, and distributing out widely so that more people listen, I very much appreciate the quality of the conversations that I've been having with people who also have struggled with their identities, especially at these intersections. And for these conversations to spark dialogue, for people to start asking themselves questions about where they feel like they belong or who do they believe they are. In what ways have they been restricting themselves and just really understanding this fluidity of life? And as you get to the core what that center is, where the expectations and perceptions of the people around us and society has really layered over the top of who we truly are at our core. When you start to unlearn what those expectations and labels are, you start to find your own sense of freedom by connecting with who you are, your values. And I so appreciate you all for rockin' with me throughout that, because I was very, very insecure about whether or not that was a topic of conversation that fit this podcast. And thanks to the feedback that I've gotten, I hope to be able to continue to explore some of those things as they come up and not have this space be exclusively about the experiences of navigating herpes. Like, I hope to be able to offer more value to you than that.
Yesterday I was speaking with a friend, we were talking about kinks and fetishes, and the difference. And I have a glossary from our sponsor "Beducated"; that's "educated" with a "b" in the front. So if you visit W W W dot beducate dot me slash S P F P P, and you enter as S P F P P in the promo code box, you will get 65% off of an annual membership. That's $9.99 a month to access a library of "beducation" tools to bring it to the bedroom. Or outside the bedroom, wherever you want to get freaky. Uh, and there's a glossary for a course that I just took, "The Beducated Dominance and Submission for Playing with Power Dynamics" course. Now, I mentioned I've taken Lola Jean's "Pegging" course; I've tooken, [taken?] uh, Marla Renee Stewart's "Dirty Talk" course. And I am here to tell you that these classes--first off, they compliment each other. They all go into the same aspects of, uh, sex education that I feel should be taught to you.
The kink and B D S M conversations that adults have don't always have to include sex. And I think that a framework for youth that is centered around these kinds of negotiations--where we talk about consent and, uh, we communicate about--throughout the course of negotiation--negotiating the scene or the relationship or, uh--when I say "scene"--again, this is in the B D S M glossary, that just means how you're going to play together. You know, youth can say, "All right, hey, we're going to play basketball. Here are the rules: we're going to play up to 21, uh, twos and threes. And we shoot three free throws after you make a basket, uh, and if you hit all three, you take the ball out." That's a negotiation! Like, that's common negotiations for a pick up game of basketball with, uh--that's not, like, teams. And you can even run it with teams. So, the same kind of philosophy there in the kink and B D S M world is something that we can teach to, uh, youth, and it's omitting the word "sex". So, even throughout the course of this, uh, "Power Dynamics" course, a lot of the language did not include sexual acts. And I won't give away the course here, but, uh, we talked about consent and negotiations. There were dialogue--there was dialogue between partners, and it teaches you a way to initiate conversations by simply saying something as simple as, "I'd like to try blank." And then, as a partner, you can just ask, "Ok, well how? What does that look like?" And as a Dom, you are a person who--you don't want to do to yourself what you haven't already done for yourself. This allows for you to be more empathetic and understanding to what something feels like before you do it to another person. And as a sub, please don't think that not speaking up, uh, is a cool thing to do. Like, use your Safe Word if you need to. If you have to speak up it won't ruin the scene.
It, in fact, is going to create that further sense of safety and security for you to be able to lean into your relationship dynamic, and enjoy the scene even more because you can trust your Dom as a leader. You can also, uh--I loved this--they encourage you to hire a sex worker for education purposes. This is something that would be helpful if you're wanting to explore kink and B D S M, and these are things that you may not be experiencing. For instance, like, rope. You may not know to have a pair of heavy duty scissors on hand in the event that something does go wrong. So those safety practices are important. And I had to drop this in here, y'all: practicing Yoga can be calming to the mind and body from potentially an intense scene, allowing for you to transition back into the real world, getting out of Sub Space. If you don't know what Sub Space is, then "Beducated"--if you go to beducate dot me slash S P F P P and enter that promo code S P F P P--you will be able to take this course yourself and you'll find that there is an entire glossary of terms that the B D S M and kink communities use. This is just a glossary for you. I will say, I'm not going to tell you everything about this course, but this "Ice Play" is calling me, y'all. It's something that is absolutely in my budget, in my price range, and it's something that I can make more of if I run out. So again, for $9.99 a month, you can get access to this huge library of "Beducational" resources by visiting Beducate dot me slash S P F P P and then entering the promo code S P F P P at checkout.
And, yeah, next week I'll talk about the "Threesomes" video. I can't wait to take that course, because I've not had good threesomes. And [chuckles] throughout my relationships--I tried this in college a couple of times and then with a couple of recent partners and yeah, none of those went well. But we can talk about those in the next ad. And hopefully I'll be able to share an experience of a positive threesome that happened as a result of me visiting Beducate dot me slash S P F P P and entering S P F P P in the promo code. And if you've got stories to share, you know I'm all ears. You can share them here, and your anonymity is safe [chuckles].
Yeah, this conversation with Jennifer is very timely. It wasn't intentional for it to happen this way, but we end up speaking a lot to, just power dynamics as people who date outside of our race. There are things that we, as people of color, need to be mindful of when we date or pursue--or even flirt--with White people. You got to keep in mind, like, just maybe twenty, thirty, forty years ago, a Black man who was wrongfully accused of flirting with a White woman--those allegations would lead to death. And in 2022, what that may look like is someone making an accusation against a Black man and, like, there's no need for them to prove the accusation, because of the climate that we live in. But there's a need for the Black man to prove his innocence, if you will. So, we speak a little bit to that and we talk about how we need to have certain dialogue among our partners. And again, going back to the fetishization. Like, you'll hear from Jennifer how she's fetishized by White men. And for me, just my being in public play spaces, I have concerns about potentially being the only Black man in a predominately White space, because of what that could look like. Not just the fetishization, but perhaps intimidation; or someone could be jealous, or someone could violate my consent. So, these are all things to be mindful of as you listen to this podcast episode. If you're someone who is White and date outside your race or if you're someone of color who dates outside your race, then I encourage you to really listen to this podcast episode and ask yourself whatever questions come up for you. And ask your partners questions. Hell, ask them to listen with you! And just notice that it's different. The dialogue's different, the aspects of communication, the non-verbals, all of this can be different. Like, how someone sends a message can be completely received in a different way than what it's intended to as well. So, just take note of these kinds of things as you listen.
I hope you enjoy, and please don't forget to check out that promo code. Even if you don't--even if you think that you are a "Beducated" individual to the fullest capacity, I invite you to check out Beducated dot com, by visiting the link in the show notes. Or you can go to Beducate dot me slash S P F P P, enter promo code S P F P P at checkout and get 65% off your annual membership, so that you pay $9.99 a month. All right? Here's to our interview with Jennifer.
Courtney: Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non profit organization that connects people who are struggling with herpes stigma to community and mental health resources. You can read--ug, you can read--you can download the podcast episodes [chuckles] wherever you listen to podcasts and listen to the lived experiences of people who are navigating the herpes stigma from diagnosis to disclosure. You can visit W W W dot S P F P P dot org to learn more. That's just the acronym for Something Positive for Positive People. The "dot org" is important because it's not "dot com". You'll be at a different website completely, so don't go there. S P F P P dot org. I can be found on Instagram, Tumblr, Twitter, and Reddit at "H on my chest", but most active on Instagram, where you can find various testimonials from people. You'll see, like, some podcast episode highlights and graphics and different polls and things like that, where I'll share on my Instagram story highlights that really get a sense of community due to the involvement of the spaces, um, that you'll see supporters of Something Positive for Positive People.
And today's podcast guest--I'm so terrible about intros--is Jen [chuckles]. Jen, Jennifer, Jenny, you said basically I can call you any of those things, so I have no reason to say your name outside of the introduction, but what's probably more important is your identifiers. So what are your pronouns, and any other identifiers that you would like to share with the audience today?
Jennifer: Nope, you can just go with she and her, that's fine. You can call me "hey, you", you can call me "It", it's fine.
Courtney: [laughs]
Jennifer: I'm good with any of that.
Courtney: All right. So, in our prediscussion of the podcast, you mentioned having partners--you mentioned that you were with a partner--and that another partner had an experience with testing positive for Covid. Can you share with me your relationship style?
Jennifer: So, you know, I don't identify as being poly or being monogamous, or being ethical non-monogamy. I'm whatever works for the person I'm with and the relationship. Right now, I am doing, I would say, ethical non-monogamy, but it's interesting because as I don't identify with anything, I'll date whomever, basically. And, so, if I start dating someone who is monogamous and it gets to a point where it starts to get serious, you know, I have to make a decision about cutting everybody else off, and going with this one relationship. And then I was thinking, you know, if I start dating someone that I get kind of serious with that is open or is poly, I kind of have to make the same decision because I have to decide if this is a relationship I want to build, this is a person I want to be with. We know that we're going to be open, I now have to cut out any potential monogamous ones [inaudible] relationships as well because I know they're not going to go anywhere. I know it's not going to work for them, it's not going to work for us. So, I don't really define myself as anything, I'm just kind of whatever works at the moment.
Courtney: So, what I'm hearing in that is presence. That you are someone who is in relationships in the moment of the relationship. You're not necessarily holding onto any sort of potential for the future, it's just who you're with at that point in time and where it is in that moment. It just sounds like practicing presence more than anything, without any sort of labels, expectations, or any kind of pressure. Is that, like, an accurate statement to make?
Jennifer: I would say that's very accurate. When things get a little bit serious, or it's been awhile, we do check-ins with each other to see where we're at and where we want to go. And if what we're doing is working or if we need to open things up more, close things off more. So, yes, present, in the moment, but also looking a little bit to the future if that's the way things, you know, seem to be going.
Courtney: Yeah. For you, dating multiple people, do you find it easy to express what it is that you want with that person vs. what it is that you want in general?
Jennifer: Again, I think it depends on the person themselves and the relationship we have. Some people you connect with more, some people--you have different types of conversations, you feel more comfortable with--that you can be more open with. And, so, again, I think it all, for me, just goes back to what type of relationship we have and whatnot. I have learned that it's better to be open and honest up front, though. Um, you know, and part of that comes with learning about that from the herpes diagnosis, is that you've got to be up-front and very clear and communicative. And so, I've taken part of that, and just in a general sense, and relay that to my relationships as well. You know, "this is where I'm at, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I need, this is what I don't need".
Courtney: Yeah. OK! When you say you apply that to the herpes diagnosis, I'm curious to know, it sounds like being up-front--being direct--that you disclose very, very early in the interactions. Is that true?
Jennifer: That is absolutely true. So, you know, at first when you first get diagnosed, you have to go through that whole thing of when you disclose. And I think that's different for everyone in terms of, do they feel like they need to be comfortable, they need to trust the person, and that maybe this is going somewhere so now it's time to tell them? I don't think there's necessarily a wrong way or right way, as long as you're doing it before any sexual interaction. But when you disclose is up to you. For me, it personally works best to tell them up-front. Right away, for the most part. And so I did a little testing out, like you know, I'd wait a couple dates, sometimes I'd tell them right away. I meet a lot of people through Internet dating, and I have it out on my profile. For me it just works best because it's out there, they know about it, and it lessens the rejection. I'm not going to lie, that's part of it. If they already know and they're still wanting to talk, then OK. I always go back and double check, "Did you actually read the profile and not just look at the pictures?" And you know, spawn a discussion that way. Then, if we start dating and it gets to the point where it's going to get sexual or whatnot, if they don't have it, I'm gonna sit down and have another talk with them about, you know, what this means for them, did they really think it through.
Courtney: How do you disclose in your profile? Just out of curiosity.
Jennifer: I'm old, I've had a lot of profiles, been around the block. So it's always different, right. Some I make it a funny--I make it a funny joke. Sometimes I have a line of, um...you know, something about..."I have herpes, down a beer and think about it." You know, other times it's just, you know, it's a couple lines or whatnot, and just the fact that I'm just open about it. I usually kind of make a joke out of it, and, you know, it's been interesting the replies I get. Because you get anywhere from "I don't care, that's fine, not a big deal". I have noticed--so, I haven't dated for several years, I'm getting out of a marriage. And I've noticed since I've come back to online dating, how many more people have emailed me saying, "Well I have it too." Where, it would maybe be a handful, I'd be now and again where I'd get someone like that, seems to be a lot more lately where they're disclosing to me.
Courtney: That's pretty cool, because I think what that speaks to is, over the passage of time, just how many more people are--just define what stigma tells us to do, which is to keep this to yourself, don't tell anybody unless you're going to have sex with them. So, for people to be coming at you and being like, "Hey, you know, I have it too", that speaks volumes to our progression in how we as a society are navigating herpes stigma. Now hopefully, S T I stigma in general, it's becoming more acceptable to communicate around sex, sexual health, relationships. And as people can become more confident in their communication skills, I think that's bleeding into a comfort around intense subjects, or potentially intimidating subjects. Allowing for people to be more vulnerable and offer a solid foundation for connection.
Jennifer: So, what I've noticed is that, you know, it definitely has the pros of dating someone with it, right? Is that you don't have to worry about passing it along and them understanding what the outbreaks are and everything like that. And so I think, when these people see that I have herpes, I'm out in the open, and then they contact me and they let me know they have it too, there's a comfort level there. But a lot of these people are on, what I would say--I mean they're not specifically, it's not the dating site related to S T Ds. And so these people are out there as well, looking to date, and they're not just limiting it to that as well. And so it's kind of a comfort when you find someone who's so out and open about it. I think that can be a trap as well, when you start looking at dating people with herpes, and that was something I definitely had to learn early on. So I think there's pros and cons to it. And, uh, you know, and then, on the flip side, though, I've got to tell you, there are some really big jerks out there too, as far as when what they think they're entitled to in terms of how they message me and what they think they can get from me right off the bat. As if I'm desperate because I have herpes and I don't have options. And they seem to think that they're very entitled and I'm just going to say yes to whatever they want.
Courtney: Yeah, you're speaking to a handful of things that I want to touch on, since you've brought this up. One of the things that comes to mind immediately when you speak to people being able to get--think that they can get whatever it is they want out of you. Have you encountered the, "Oh, well, if you have herpes genitally, can you still go down on me?" Have you run into that one yet?
Jennifer: My messages have gotten so bad from these people. It's unbelievable. One of the things I love is, like, witty banter. Right? I love sarcasm, like that just does it for me. And I put that in my profile. And so, I had a guy who messaged me and said, "How about you blow me and I'll bring the witty banter?" Which, how do you banter if I've got a cock in my mouth, like I don't know. Like I can't go back and forth with that, so it's really just you talking at me while I give you a blow job. And he was not willing to have sex with me. That's all he wanted was just the blow job. And, if, you know, there are people out there that are worried about having sex with me because of it, I'm actually OK with that, right? I get it, I understand. But to feel like you're entitled or that you think I'm desperate enough that I'll just go along with this stuff...because that's how they come off. And I definitely get emails where they're like, "Well, we can just have anal sex". I'm like, "Well, it doesn't work like that [laughs], let me tell you. Let me tell you how the herpes works." Or, "we'll just wear condoms", you know. Which is great, it's safer, but again there's not a 100% guarantee. They do not understand how it works. And, you know, everything like that. But yeah, they think that they can just get what they want out of it and I'll just be happy for the scraps they're gonna throw at me.
Courtney: Yeah. Out of curiosity, I'm looking at you and I'm curious to know what your experience is as a person of color with this. Are you feeling that there's any sort of fetishization or, um...I want to ask that in a different way. Let me ask you, do you feel like you had any sort of representation or, like, a road map of some sort from someone who perhaps looked like you, or has a shared experience, in order to get you to the point that you're at now with being able to speak so freely about your herpes diagnosis?
Jennifer: I feel generally very lucky about my journey, if you want to call it that. So, when I was diagnosed I was in a relationship already. And my gut feeling is that the guy I was in a relationship knew about it and didn't tell me. Now, I can't 100% speak to that, but...and then we stayed together for a little bit after I told him and everything. The catalyst here was that the first person I dated, really in a serious relationship after I got diagnosed, he didn't have herpes. And he was just so understanding and really nonchalant about everything. You know, every little thing I was freaking out: maybe I'm shedding, maybe I'm having an outbreak, you know and I'd rush to tell him. And he was just so very cool and laid back about it all and I think that really helped develop my attitude with it and being so open about it. I mean, he was pretty instrumental, I think, into how I handled everything. Speaking to the whole, you know, being a person of color and whatnot, so, for your listeners out there, I am Asian. And, you know, this doesn't have anything to do with the herpes diagnosis, but yeah, man, definitely, you get a lot of people who are coming at me just because, you know what? I'm a bucket list item.
Courtney: [groans in disgust] Let's speak to that, please. [laughs in exasperation]
Jennifer: Yes, I can tell you, you know, stories like...I had one gentleman one time--I use that term loosely--tell me that I am the only Oriental woman he's ever met that didn't want to please a White man. Because I just wasn't agreeing with everything that he said, or there was any push back. I think the stereotypes around Asian women is that we're this...these docile, we're walking five steps behind you, we're, you know, looking to "wait on you hand and foot" type thing, we're timid and meek, and that is definitely not me. So, you know, I had a guy recently tell me that he's got "Yellow Fever" [laughs], like there's a bunch of it. You kind of have to go through about, you know, some of that stuff, because I'll tell you later on, after you've been talking for a little bit, "well I really have a thing for Asians." And then you have to think, "OK, is that just kind of a preference? Or is that something where it's like, you know, a fetish for you and that's the only reason that you're with me?" And then I get a lot of, well, my vagina must be slanted as well. I get that a lot.
Courtney: This is like some racist shit, this ain't fetishization [laughs]. Like, just put them flat out, that's what it sounds like to me. And to be seen as a bucket list item, and I--most of our podcast episodes, just so you know, like, we touch on herpes and that's probably 15% of the conversation at this point, but the other 85 is just, like, your lived experience. Because I'm sure there are people who can relate to being fetishized, who, dating multiple people and kind of navigating this space. And this is also something that I don't recall really going into detail about. But I recognize that the fetishization is sort of dehumanizing in a way. And the way that you're speaking to it, it's like, this is blatant racism! Like, the shit people think that they can say to you!
Jennifer: Yeah, they, you know, it is amazing sometimes the things that they'll say to you. But again, you know, I kind of let that all just roll off my back. And I'd rather them say it to my face and you kind of know up front, "OK, this is what this person is like" and whatnot. I was out with a really good friend of mine once and I thought it was interesting that, you know--him and I weren't dating and whatnot, but we were such good friends and maybe it came across that way--we had a man sit down to ask my friend, "Hey, hey. Where can I get me one of them Asians like you got?" You know, like I wasn't there. Or they'll sit down and talk to him and be like, "Hey, can I talk to your woman?" Because I guess they wanted to hit on me. And he just said, "You don't ask me, you ask her!" You know? Like, "I'm not her keeper."
Courtney: Oh my goodness. This is ridiculous [laughs]. And, so, uh, in these spaces that you date and you meet people...I guess, how do you respond to some of that? You know, like I'm hearing that this is what's coming at you, but how are you navigating the fetishization of how you look?
Jennifer: You know, I think in the earlier years, I used to push back a little bit more, um...and everything, but...I'm so...you know what, it's probably not the way to be, I'm just apathetic about it at this point. I just walk away because it's not worth my time. If I felt like someone...if I could reach someone to make them see how racist they're being or stereotypical or whatever the case may be, I might try and talk with them about it, but if I don't think there's any change there I'm just not going to waste my time, to be honest. So, I just kind of let it go. Sometimes, you know, I might say something, but otherwise I just ignore them.
Courtney: Yeah. Apathy is a good word. And I want to sort of speak to this from my own experience as well, with navigating like, sometimes being the first Black guy someone's slept with. And I like that I don't know this until, like--somehow later on it organically comes up, that's cool. But if I were to hear, "Oooh, I've never been with a Black guy before", I think that would make my dick soft. And I'd just be like, [sucks teeth] "I just feel like a bucket list item, I'm feeling real objectified before I feel safe to go in any sort of objectification at all. Like, we can take it to certain areas, but in an instance like that where you just feel like you're not a person to somebody, you're a check box to mark off their list and then they're gonna just go on with their life and discard you for whatever else it is that they have on that list. And that just doesn't feel good.
Jennifer: OK, so this is an interesting one that, I don't know, maybe you can speak to this somewhat. So, a lot of times, and it's happened with, I'll say it's majority of Black men, and sometimes White men, but they'll usually ask me, "Have you ever been with a Black guy before?" And I always thought that was an interesting question and then I started getting annoyed by it. Because whenever I get asked that, I always just thought, A) what does it matter? Are Black guys different than any other type of guy out there? Right, you're just a person and it doesn't matter what your race is or your ethnicity, it's going to be about who you are as a person. But I got asked that so often, if I've ever been with a Black guy. Or, "Have you ever been with a White guy before?" And so, you know, I did have a friend of mine who said she gets asked that a lot. She finally asked someone about that, and one of the guys told her, "Well, dating Black men sometimes, um, you know, we want to make sure that you know what you're getting into." Or, "That you know that, you know, things that can come with it." And she was a White woman and so being White dating a Black guy, I guess, I don't know. I guess I didn't ever see it as different or better. But I would get pretty annoyed when I would got asked that question a lot. And I would push back against them and they didn't like that.
Courtney: Yeah. So, I can speak a little bit to that. Because, for me, if I'm friends with someone or dating someone, you kind of get a feel for, over time, if you need to ask that question. But, typically you don't. If you're around someone enough then you know that they know certain things until something comes up or you're like, "Ohh, you either forgot I'm Black or you don't know what that means." So, I guess in shorter interactions, or if you need to know right away if someone's safe, asking if you have dated a Black guy before because we're entering into that dynamic, you know, long term. If we decide to have children together, you're not having whatever, you know, race of children you are thinking that you're gonna have. Those kids are Black. Like, when they have pigment, the way that society views Black people, like you're raising a Black child. If you are not cultured in the sense of what it means to be Black societally, what it means to be Black in the experience of the person that you're seeing and the people in their peripheral, then that could present problems that either need to be addressed now, or there has to be a willingness to move forward and address those things. On the other hand, it can be like a...it's about the tone and the intention behind it: "Ooooh, have you ever been with a Black dude before? I bet you haven't been with a Black dude before, I'm about to change your life", like talking shit, and going into the bedroom with that understanding. So I think more often it's...especially with maturity, it's coming from a place of the former. The former is the first thing I said, not the latter, right? The latter is the second thing? All right, I don't want to mess that up [laughs]. But yeah, I think that most of the time when it's brought up that way that's what the intention is behind it. For me, I like to have hard conversations pretty quickly and early about not just what I do in relation to this podcast, this non-profit, but what it means to be seen in public spaces with me. If someone's non-Black--let's just say it that way--like we're going to get looked at and I'm going to have a certain type of attention depending on the atmosphere. And if we go into an atmosphere that's predominantly Black, then whoever it is that I'm with who may not be Black is also gonna get that same level of attention. So, it's a matter of assessing not only comfort but willingness to go into that space and, like, be willing to deal with what potential consequences, if you will, come with that. So, if they're not comfortable with those kind of long-term things or being seen in the way that we're going to be seen in our social interactions, then it's probably best that we limit our interactions to whatever it is that we're mutually agreeing upon for being with each other in that moment.
Jennifer: You know, the thing of race is so interesting for me personally in a way that--so, I'm adopted by--a bunch of "round eyes", is what I call them--they're [laughs] White family, they're Irish. I'm very much a part of this family, right? So, it's interesting that I don't actually see myself necessarily as Asian. And if anything I guess you could say I identify more as being White. I mean, those are the people I grew up with, those are the neighborhoods and everything. My mom, one time, we were talking about the fact that I do experience racism sometimes, and she was just so surprised by that, like she just couldn't believe it. And then she said, "Well I don't see you as Asian, you're just my daughter." Thanks, Mom! But, you know, and so I have, throughout my life, I usually date either Black men or White men. And the funny thing is I've never really dated an Asian person before. So, when I finally did--and I remember going up to a restaurant one time and we were waiting to be seated. I don't know why but I was so uncomfortable being seen with an Asian guy, in a way. And it was so weird that when, like, the hostess or whomever came up to seat us, they automatically assumed we were together. Like, that we were this Asian couple. And I don't know why that bothered the crap out of me. Because, you know, that they were just looking at, I guess, our features and...so we must be together. As if I was with the Black guy, maybe she wouldn't assume that or something. I don't know.
Courtney: Huh. Yeah, there's so much projected, you know, societal expectations onto us and how we present ourselves. I put together this graphic--and by this point I think that the episodes will be up--but there's like
this intersectionality of what it means to present by gender, what it means to present by race or ethnicity, culture. And then what it means to present in terms of, like, by association with who it is that you're with. And as you speak, the more you speak, the more I'm like seeing this triangle of intersectionality just sort of dissolve, because you are you. You're not identifying with or attaching yourself to your ethnicity or what it means to be, uh, like, uh, what your gender, um, or, like, who you are by association. You're you. And, again, just touching back on that presence, like in the moment, being with who you're with, being who you are in all these scenarios, and like I'm getting this picture much more well put together than it has been formulated before of just everyone's uniqueness. And as I'm talking to you, you talked about, you know, being Asian and having been adopted by a White family, when I hear a parent say, "Well, you know I don't see you as Asian, you're my daughter", that's cool but there are also things that come along with that that can be potentially harmful. You know? It feels good, sounds good in the moment, you're like, "Aww, Mom, I love you!" But when y'all walk outside the house and y'all go to a restaurant to be seated, then there's potential discrimination, stereotypes and all of those things that you have to deal with that someone who loves you as much as your mom just may not understand. So, I'm very, like, intrigued by how you just do life as you, and you're apathetic towards the bullshit, you discern when someone is worth the dialogue about you know, "well hey, why are you saying the kinds of things that you're saying to me? What makes you think that that's OK?" Like, this is very, very much, like, inspiring and intriguing for me because I recognize how challenging it can be for somebody to show up, you know, in their unique form of self without having any sort of, like, attachments to labels to fall back on for support. And I think that also is why you're such a great communicator, because the way that you speak to your experiences is like, you don't...you're not attaching to a label, so you're much more articulate in what relationship dynamics look like. What navigating the world of dating looks like, how you speak to and speak through your disclosure process. So, I just wanted to take a moment to recognize that.
Jennifer: Thanks! You know, I guess...you know...not having labels on myself I think is...sometimes it makes it easier and sometimes it makes it harder because then the people that you are with, they have to kind of be in the same mindset of, "OK, well she's not this way and she's not that way", so they don't necessarily know where they stand or where they will be standing at, you know, a month down the line or whatever. Because I can be fickle or I can change my mind or because I'm not put in this particular lane where they just know, you know...when you're in, let's say a monogamous relationship, you start at Point A, at some point you're gonna end up at Point Z, right? If the relationship continues. And that's not necessarily the case with me because I can go off, you know, on tangents or a side road, or whatever the case may be. And so, for someone else, they have to kind of know it and that it can just go anywhere. As far as like, you know, the whole not putting up with bullshit and everything, I just don't care enough, I don't. I'm not going to waste my time. And for people that...I think that's good and bad, because it frees me up to be with people that I do care about or that I find interesting, or that I can have these conversations with that might mean something or just be fun and more in depth, or whatnot. But at the same time, it's kind of like you get these people who have differing views or differing values and maybe they're wrong but if we're not trying to change that or make them think of things in a different light, then those people never change. Right? So, then how does our society evolve or become better or be more self-aware if you have so many apathetic people like me? I'm just relying on the rest of you to make a difference.
Courtney: Yeah. You mentioned something about labels and how they kind of create this sense of comfort for other people. Is it that sometimes having a label for another person to connect with you or identify, is that something that--I don't want to say it's for their comfort-- but just like how I said, like, if you were to offer some form of a label to someone that you do want to connect with as an opportunity for them to be able to connect with you--I don't know, like I'm formulating this as we're speaking as well--because while no labels on you are very freeing, there's no pressure there, but in being in that space I imagine that it can be lonely if there aren't other people who are on the same wavelength. So you gotta kind of like come down, in a way, to another person's level--[sighs in exasperation] this sounds so bad, the way that I'm trying to process this [laughs]--but like, having to come down to someone else's level who may not be at a place of being free from labels. Like, if someone, you know let's say, you're free from identifications and you're just like floating along, and someone's like, controlled by gravity and the pressure of labels, and they're like, "Hey! Hey Jen! Hey, I think you're hot! Come here!" [laughs] You know and calling you down, but you need, like, labels in order to communicate with that person. I don't know, man, I'm struggling with this one. And normally I'm real good about, like, bringing this shit back full circle, but I'm not doing a very good job. I guess if I were to put this in a question, it would be: how do you use labels if you need to use labels?
Jennifer: So, first, I'm not anti-label, actually. I absolutely think sometimes, in a lot of ways, labels have their place. It's easy. Right? You don't have to be
defined by the label but it is a good starting point to recognize someone and saying, "OK, this is where they're at." It doesn't have to be, you know, the end all, be all, this is the only thing you can be, this is the only thing you are because you have that label. It's just your foundation. Right? My foundation maybe is that I'm a cis woman. OK. Does that mean that I don't enjoy things that are strictly for that? No, of course not. There could be other gender neutral or gender bend-y things that I'm into that I can be into even though I am a cis woman. So, I think labels are a good way to group people, in some ways. If it forces them into that label only, that's when it's bad. That's when you need to be more open minded about it. But, having a label as a starting point, I think is a good place to go. It's easier, it's how humans interact, it's how we get to know each other. And this is where we can start, and then you get to learn about that person and their individual alley about it. And I work with people, like if their--if my lack of labels and whatnot are an issue for them, then you just sit down and talk about it. And this is how I think, this is how I feel, and maybe they'll apply their own label to me that makes sense, again, as a starting point. "OK, well she's kind of like this, you know, and this is how I can relate or you know, kind of understand" and then you go from there.
Courtney: That makes sense. Thank you. Thank you for putting that together so well for me because I was not able to do so myself [laughs]. Early on, before we started our podcast, you were speaking to disclosure in a way--and ahhh, I keep meaning to not use that way of saying "share your status", I'm figuring out a better way to do so. So, for lack of a better phrase, we'll just say when you're sharing your status--I don't remember what we were saying before the podcast and I said that I wanted us to come back to that. Do you remember what it was?
Jennifer: So, in that particular one, it might have been about disclosing to someone, not even a disclosure, was it about when I was dating someone who did not have herpes and then I ended up having an outbreak that I had to talk about?
Courtney: No, but uh....let's tell that story.
Jennifer: So, I was--I am dating someone, they knew that they didn't have herpes, they don't have it and they're fine with that. I think, you know, somewhere along the way I ended up getting an outbreak. And so, I had to go and let him know that A) sex is off the table--
Courtney: That is it.
Jennifer: --and that, you know, the difference being that theoretically they know, right? It's a hypothetical situation: "OK, this person has herpes, there's a potential to get it." But when I have to come through now and say, "I'm having an outbreak, yes this is a real thing, you know. Maybe there's a minimal chance you got it, maybe there's not." Even a chance at that point. But it becomes more real, the reality sets in. And then we had to have another, kind of serious discussion of "have you thought about the fact that if I pass this along to you, what that means for you and your future and your, you know, romantic and sexual relationships?" And I tell them up front, if I pass it to you, am I gonna feel bad? Yes. But if the relationship isn't working, I'm not gonna hesitate to end it. And the fact that you have it, you have it from me, is not going to be a guilty enough thing for me to stick around.
Courtney: I respect that, yeah. Thank you for bringing that up, because that is what we were talking about beforehand. Because the reality is, yeah, we tell someone and we give them the choice, and then they make the decision and we trust that decision. Now, when it becomes real, you know--I'm someone who doesn't get outbreaks frequently--so if I say, "Yeah, I don't get outbreaks" and then, you know, we make plans to connect over a weekend or something, and I'm feeling in my body that there may be an outbreak coming along or there is a physical outbreak that you can see, now having to tell someone, "Hey, I am experiencing an outbreak, this is the first time potentially that it's actually impacted our sex life." And, you know, they may have gone along, like, you had the one conversation, that was it. And much time can have passed and a lot of comfort and rapport could have been built, but what does that mean when you now have to go back and be like, "All right, it's real now, remember I told you, 'Oh, you know this really isn't a big deal for me or anything, but now it is.'" So in that instance when shit gets real, in that case, navigating the discussion is very much a different tone behind it. Because I think that when we disclose in a way that we get the desired outcome we want, which is a person moving forward who's like, "Well oh yeah, well we'll just use condoms", their thought process is, "Well the chances of me getting it are low, especially if you're not really impacted by it." Now all of a sudden it's a reminder, and like, an intense reminder that, "Oh, shit, you've got an outbreak", "Oh, you actually have herpes", because, you know, if someone doesn't really know much, they could probably think that, "Oh, over time it just goes away, or it gets better." But to be someone--or to be in a position where you have to confront the reality again, or revisit the conversation--that's a different conversation to be had. Because typically we think of disclosure as a one time thing: We tell someone, they say OK, we move forward, that's it. But when you have to revisit the conversation, does it come with a higher risk of rejection now that time has passed, and, like, the person could have even just forgotten about it, has the person even been given a second chance to walk away, or what? So, what has your experience been...well if you have any outside of this one in particular, if you are able to share any.
Jennifer: Yeah, I have lots of experiences, because I will--if I think that I'm shedding or an outbreak might be coming--I will stop sex all together. And I let them know this is where I'm at, I want to be safe just to be sure. So I've had a lot of experiences with that. But it's definitely the--whatever you want to call it--secondary, you know, conversation or whatnot. You are in a more vulnerable spot because now you've had time with the person to build--whether it's these, you know, actual feelings or the fact that maybe it's just a friends with benefits thing, but you still like them enough to have sex on a, you know, semi-regular basis. You definitely feel more vulnerable because the stakes are higher. So now if they're walking away, you know, it's kind of like, "well, I know you enough now", um, or that they know me enough now, they like me enough. But if they're walking away, it's definitely because of this and because I'm not, you know--you get that feeling, and I don't think this is true, but "I'm not worth it to stick around in case this happens." I wanted to talk a little bit about [clears throat] I guess even just the disclosure, um, in general and doing it for the first time or, you know, in cases like these, is that what I've noticed is the advice I give to people when they're...just get recently diagnosed and they're starting to date again and they don't know how to have what I consider "The Talk". I think the number one advice I can give someone is that when you disclose, you do it from a strong position. And what I mean by that is--let's take herpes out of it, let's say it's something else that you've got, that you don't want to tell someone because you see it in a negative light. So maybe you're living with your parents. For whatever reason. Right? And as an adult, that can be embarrassing, in that it's not looked upon maybe as a positive thing. And so I tell people try not to be anxious about it, right? If you come across and say, "Well, um, you know, I kind of just, I have this, I have this situation and I'm living with my parents and you know, I just, uh, you know, I'm trying to..." Like, that anxiousness is gonna come across and that other person is gonna receive that information in the same way you're giving it. So, if you can do it from a different position of, "You know, I'm living with my parents right now. I ran into some money issues but I'm back on track and I'm saving up and I'll be moving out in a couple months. And so, in the meantime, I'm just enjoying spending some extra time with them." And you just kind of lay out the facts more, and let them then make the decision. But you don't have to hem and haw, you don't have to make it sound like you're a charity case, right? It's not about, just about these potential what you see negatives. They have to bring something to the table too, right? They have to be someone that you want to be with, someone you want to date, and it's not just about, "Oh please accept me."
Courtney: Yeah! You said the same thing in two different ways and I had two visceral responses to them. One of which is, you know, the potential stereotypes about a person who is living at home, right? If you just like, "Oh, I'm living at home"...all you're leaving me with is what I think about a person who is an adult at this age who lives at home. Versus being like, "Hey, you know, I ran into some financial issues, I'm living at home, I get to spend a little bit of extra time with my parents", I'm hearing the reality of the situation, the positive side to the situation that, you know, while it's a less than desired situation, you're someone who leans into that insecurity and is able to communicate that to a potential partner or someone that you want to know that information. And you're not doing so in a way that's like, down or in a negative field. So, yeah, thank you for sharing that in that way because it goes for everything. Disclosing is disclosing. And when you're telling someone about your herpes status it's the same thing there, like, "Oh, I have herpes [sucks teeth]. Please love me, please accept me, please still want to sleep with me" vs. "Hey, you know, I have herpes, I really want to have sex with you and here's what it's going to look like moving forward. You know, the good thing is I take better care of my health because if I don't, I'll be reminded I have herpes, ha ha!" Those are two completely different energy fields that come with the sharing of your status. There was a question that I wanted to ask you while you were talking, but didn't want to interrupt, and I placed my pen and paper right here for the sake of writing things down if that happens and I forgot it was right here until I just said it. So, I'm going to let you say anything that you want to add to this and I am going to try my hardest to think of that question. But more than likely I'm just gonna ask you something different after you finish-- [laughs]--what you're say---OH! I remember the question! You speak to sharing with people who reach out to you. So out of curiosity, like, how are--like, what are you doing to where people are reaching out to you about herpes, if you don't mind me asking?
Jennifer: So, it's been awhile, but I used to post on Reddit a lot about it, um, whatnot, or I'd just bring it up and then, you know, it's people that are just trying to find information, they're trying to find comfort, they're trying to find people that understand or whatnot. I'm, for the most part, fairly open about it, like most of my friends know about it, I talk about it with dating and how it affects dating and whatnot, and so, you know, if they know someone that recently has it, maybe they'll, you know, connect me with them or something like that to, you know, so they can have someone to talk with, that can kind of understand and things like that.
Courtney: Yeah. All right, so when you speak to other people, what I'm hearing is [chuckles]--I'm projecting for sure--you're creating allies. And I think that that's sort of where our journey and stigma begins to really shift when we have allyship around us. So you're comfortable with talking to the people that you're gonna have sex with about herpes. You're comfortable with sharing with people in your social circles and having them bring people to you. I think that the more we can get to a place of being willing to welcome in allies, the easier it is gonna be for us to disclose. Because at that point, we'll have the recognition that everyone knows someone who is living with herpes. And regardless of how the jokes are in the media--the jokes, the stigmatization, the harm that's being done in the comments of people's posts who test positive and then they do something that people who know about their status may not agree with--all of this stuff can be dissolved by creating such a strong sense of allyship that people are able to speak up on our behalf who don't have herpes or who may not be aware of their status. When they see these jokes, being able to speak out and be like, "Hey, man, that's not cool, like you just lost a follower" or "Hey, man, that's not cool, like, I know someone who I love dearly who has herpes and they struggle with stigma and this is like, putting them in that place of struggle. Not cool." When we get to a place where we have more of that, I think that it'll be a lot easier for people to receive a herpes diagnosis. For them to disclose to people. For people who are on the other end of receiving a disclosure to welcome it, accept it, understand what it means a little bit more and be able to go willingly into the relationship dynamic, whatever it looks like, with a little bit more information. And ultimately, like, our creating a sense of allyship through extending for support--extending for support [chuckles]--through extending our stories to the people around us for support and disclosing to potential partners, these are the things that are needed in order for us to create this utopia [laughs] of herpes acceptance and destigmatization of this virus.
Jennifer: So, I think, eventually it'll get there. But it's going to be like anything else in our society. It's just going to take a long time, it's gonna take years because, you know, I was saying earlier how I've noticed since I've been back on the dating apps and dating, that a lot more people have been coming to me and saying, "I have it." And part of that tells me it's also just spreading, because it's kind of prevalent, you know? And so, the more people that you talk about allies, the more people that have it, the more people that get it, the more people you know about it, it'll just become, kind of a, you know, another thing of, "OK, whatever!" There are so many things--when you are looking for relationships and sex and whatnot--to be rejected over. You know, I can be rejected because I don't have any boobs. You know, or this or that or...there's so many things. And so, herpes is just another one. Right? And that, "OK, they didn't like me because of this or because of that". And so I guess I just don't care anymore and that's why I'm able to have, you know, an easier time of talking about it or disclosing because if that's one of your hard lines then that's fine, if that's a deal breaker for you, I get it and we move on. As long as they're respectful about it, that's all I care.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm.
Jennifer: You know? And so, you know, I've got--I've ran into more and more people though, that also don't care; that they realize, "OK, this is, you know, this is a type of virus, a skin condition, and we'll just work with it or not." But it's becoming less and less of a--I don't know, I don't want to say hardship, but um, you know--fearful of disclosing if you want to call it that. Because it's more well known, it's more common knowledge.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm. Early in the episode, we began speaking about, you know, the pros and cons of putting your status on dating sites. So, on one hand you get people who are like, "Oh my god, me too!" or people who don't care, who filter their way through the cracks. And the people that aren't OK with it, you just never would know that they weren't OK with it because they're not moving forward. On the other hand, what is it that--one of things that I consider to be a con is if someone sees that and they lock onto it and they're like, "Ohh, you have herpes? Me too! Like, this could be so easy! This can be fun, like I am only locked into the fact that we both have herpes and not any other compatibilities or incompatibilities." Have you had any experiences like that?
Jennifer: Absolutely. I'm much better about it today to see the flags on that than I was in the early days. It's hard, you know, when you feel like, that--dating's hard enough anyways sometimes and now when you feel like you have this huge weight, you know, this hammer that's just going to fall at any point potentially--it's hard to date like that sometimes. And so, I think it's a real
trap when you look into dating other people that also have H S V. In that you overlook compatibility issues, and this is the only thing that you're looking at: "Oh finally, there's someone that I can be with, I don't need to worry about anything. About passing it along." And in the end it's not gonna matter because you're not compatible. You know, you might try and make it work, but it's never gonna be a real relationship. And I fall into that trap too sometimes. I'll have someone who will message me and I'll be like, "Oh cool, they have herpes!" and so I will stick around a little bit longer talking with them to say, "Oh well, you know, maybe", but in the end I'm just not interested. And so I've gotten better about walking away from that. So, there are pros and cons to dating someone with the same, you know, that has it as well, but definitely pitfalls to that that you--like you said, you just lock in on and in the end it doesn't work.
Courtney: All right! Thank you so much for your time, your voice, your presence. Before I let you go, I want to ask you about this statement that I am marketing and pushing out there: that sexual health is mental health. When you hear that, I would like to know what your immediate thoughts are.
Jennifer: I think, you know, sex is so individual to people, and how they view it and how they approach it, and how they feel about it, that of course it is all combined with mental health and how you do it. Because you have to be...for our sexual health, you know, having sex, you need to be comfortable with yourself. And that starts as a mental thing.
Courtney: Thank you so much. Is there anything else you want to leave us with before I let you go?
Jennifer: I don't think so. Thank you for having me on!
Courtney: Yeah! And how can people connect with you if they do wanna chat or get some type of support or just pick your brain?
Jennifer: Um...you know, I don't know, I could...can I leave you my email? And people are always free to reach out to me.
Courtney: Mmm-hmm! Yeah, I can put that in the show notes. All right! That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like, rate, review, subscribe to, and share this podcast. We are accepting donations to support our efforts to get people who are struggling with herpes stigma into therapy or connected to the community resources that they need. I can be found on Instagram, Twitter, Tumblr, and Reddit at "h on my chest". I'm most active on Instagram, so if you want to reach out and you want to figure out the best way to donate, um, if you're out of the--if you're not in the United States, you can visit w w w dot paypal dot com slash S P F P P, and you can donate through there if you would like to support our ongoing efforts. If there's any topics that you want to cover, by the way, like, feel free to reach out and let me know. If there are any guests that you would like to hear from, if there's any sort of representation that you'd like to have on. These are things that I don't really think about. Typically it's just people who have herpes that want to share their experience and we kind of go into the human element of it, so sometimes ethnicity, culture, race, does come up, but for the most part it doesn't. It's really just me gathering the experience of them outside of those identities and just highlighting who they are navigating herpes stigma in hopes that other people can, um, find maybe a little bit of a road map to healing in the experiences of someone else. Til next time, stay sex positive.
