SPFPP 223 Discordant Dating Series: Who's More Concerned About Transmission?

Alright now! Ya’ll asked for a couple things including more perspectives from men. A lot of people after diagnosis have this belief they’ll be single forever or that no one is going to want to be with them after a herpes diagnosis, so their only options are to be with someone who has it already, or die alone.

Our guest Charles speaks to having a relationship with a woman who has herpes from the experience of a person who has tested negative before, during and after his relationship with this partner. While we know how inaccurate/accurate HSV tests can be, our guest was able to obtain a baseline to work from regardless. With the information he had at the time, once his partner shared her positive status with him, it was simply a matter of making a choice.

We speak to many aspects of assessing compatibility. For instance, if someone lives too far, and you’re unwilling to commute 45 minutes to visit, and that’s your dealbreaker then that has nothing to do with a person just not a fit for something important to you like closeness. That’s one example to be considered when deciding who’s worth the “risk” if you will. Looking at the Pandemic, we make ongoing choices day in and day out as we interact with others to decide who’s worth it if we get Covid from them. The same rules apply with sex and STIs, and then we have to look at HSV. I think we need to see compatibility as compatibility and non-negotiables non-negotiables.

He shared the expression that there was no real difference between a relationship with someone who has herpes vs someone who doesn’t. What’s consistently coming up in these conversations is that there really isn’t any difference. The vulnerability and communication is seen as an opportunity to deeply connect beyond the physical exchange. These experiences highlight a few thought processes that someone can have when making a decision and following through with it. Trust people to make heir choices and trust yourself to make the right choices for yourself. Thank you for being here.

Transcription:

Something Positive for Positive People Episode 223: Discordant Dating Series: Who’s More Concerned About Transmission? 

March 31, 2022 

Courtney: Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brame. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non-profit organization connecting people who are navigating herpes stigma to supportive resources. This includes community, support groups, as well as counseling, and mental health services if that's what's needed. As you may have already heard, if you listen to the podcast--but if it's your first time listening, this whole thing began as a suicide prevention resource for people who were struggling most with herpes stigma, and it's evolved into a whole entire hub of support resources that are curated from the experiences of people who are navigating stigma themselves. So, in this series, we're in the Discordant Dating series of this podcast and we're on...I believe you're the fourth guest that I have here. You're someone who dates or has dated someone who has herpes and you've not tested positive yourself yet. So, yeah! Thank you for offering to be a part of this and help with sharing your perspective and having this on the podcast feed for, hopefully, people who are living with herpes to be able to share or for people who haven't tested positive to be able to refer to as they navigate dating a partner. 

Charles: You're welcome! And thank you for having me. 

Courtney: Cool. Do me a favor. As I'm talking, mute yourself. Charles: Sure. 

Courtney: Let's see how that works. And then what I'll do--OK! Perfect. There was just an echo. What I'll do then is just give you a little hand gesture for when I'm finished talking and then you can unmute and go ahead. And if you feel like--if you're ready to jump in, give me some sort of a signal, because I will continue talking until I finish [chuckles] thoughts. I'm recognizing that about myself. Let's start with how did you find out about this and what made you want to participate and share your experience? 

Charles: Sure. Well, my ex-girlfriend has herpes, H S V 2. And she had come across a post on Instagram about this and it was directly relevant to our experience. We went out for a while and she was positive and I was not. We had a bunch of discussions about this. And she asked if I wanted to share my opinions and I'm happy to participate. 

Courtney: Thank you so much. Let's begin there. I'm curious to know--I gotta stop saying that, I've been saying that a lot on this series [laughing]. "I'm curious to know" is my new "um." And "I'm interested in". Those two things are my "um" and "like" buzzwords or phrases. So, let's start with when your ex-girlfriend first shared her status with you. Tell me about how you met, the point in which she disclosed to you, how that happened, and then how you processed it and made the decision to move forward with the relationship. 

Charles: Sure. So, I had known her for a couple of years. We went to a fitness class together and we were friends. And...how detailed do you want me to get into, like, specifics around this? 

Courtney: Yeah, I mean, just don't...don't say her name. 

Charles: No, I won't say her name [laughs]. She was into pole dancing and pole dancing instruction and [had] left dancing instruction. We were joking about the class that she was teaching, a class on lap-dancing, and I joked about how could I sign up for this class. And that led to her putting together an actual one-on-one lap dance instruction for me. She went all out! She did this amazing job of putting together a course for a guy on how to lap dance [laughs]. So, that was pretty interesting. I had a couple of lessons and we kept talking and chemistry was growing. I invited her to a Christmas party that a friend of mine was hosting and this was, I think, 2017. It was clear there was some chemistry there. And that wound up with a make-out session and then we decided we were going to hang out again a few days later. [We were] getting intimate, we were getting naked and she said, "OK, so, hold off, we have to talk about something here." And that's when she told me that she was positive for H S V 2, she takes medication to suppress it, she hadn't had an outbreak for, I don't even remember how long it was, and I think she said something like, "I understand if that's a deal-breaker", or something along those lines. For me, I had relatively little experience with H S V 2 in the past, but not had a serious partner that had had that. I had been kind of casually dating for a couple of years and I had to...so we had to talk about it at that point in time. And she told me her understanding about it and talked about the impact that it had on her life and...the stigma that she either had to deal with or felt like she had to deal with. From my perspective, I was thinking about what were really my concerns. The long story short there is that it came down to the thing that I was most apprehensive about, which was really the stigma. I was familiar enough with H S V 2 to understand the impact of when you have these outbreaks they can be uncomfortable and potentially painful and annoying, but basically, it's an annoying skin condition. And that, in the grand scheme of things, is relatively minor versus the stigma of having to say, "Hey, I've got H S V 2", being a responsible sex partner, sort of disclosing that stuff. And being with somebody that I was really into right from the start! We talked about it and we would have been using protection anyway but her being informed about it, being able to talk with me about potential risks, taking steps to suppress it, and being open to discussing the things that we needed to do to be safe and minimize transmission rates, I was OK with it. We started out using condoms and we decided that in addition to being aware and her paying attention to her own feelings and recognizing when an outbreak might happen...historically she had been able to feel things coming on before it happened. We talked about, when our relationship was getting more serious and we were exclusive, we talked about not using condoms and how that could be safe. I think we had misinterpreted something that was saying that you could use medication that suppresses symptoms as a prophylactic, right? Thinking that meant that if I took some of her medication that would lessen my risks of transfer. We did that for a while and then as I got more comfortable with the whole situation, and again our relationship was getting more and more serious, we stopped doing that and were just in a committed, exclusive sexual relationship and weren't using condoms at that time. That was a couple years ago. I typically get S T D tests every six months just as a habit, regardless of what my relationship status is. And I tested negative every time since that relationship. And we're no longer boyfriend and girlfriend, but we're still best friends. 

Courtney: Out of curiosity, do you request herpes testing on top of your standard S T D testing? 

Charles: Yes, I do. I typically request specifically herpes testing, H I V, chlamydia, gonorrhea, all the sort of standard stuff. But I explicitly request herpes tests on top of the normal standard suite of tests. 

Courtney: Did you know that you had to request that in addition to a standard S T D test, before having met your last partner? 

Charles: Yeah, I did, but I'm a little bit weird about--I think I'm pretty well informed about safe responsible sex practices. I was the kid who, I lost my virginity when I was 20 and I had had an S T D test before I lost my virginity

just so I could be sure that I didn't randomly get something from some freak occurrence. So, I've always been pretty diligent about that and informed, and I viewed it as something that I had to specifically request. So I was already aware of my H S V status before going into this relationship. 

Courtney: All right, perfect. Thank you for answering that for me. My next question is about the relationship and how similar it looked--or different it looked--being in a relationship and sexual with someone who has herpes versus someone who does not have herpes. Were there any differences there for you or similarities that you're comfortable speaking to? 

Charles: Sure, for the most part, it was nearly indistinguishable. The only difference was a little bit more extensive conversation at the start, talking about her status and mitigations and risk and what we're comfortable with and not comfortable with. So there was more discussion at the start. It's a little bit simpler when I've had those conversations in the past without having the H S V status. There was a little bit more awareness around when she was having some "itching" feelings or something like that. Is that a precursor to an outbreak or is it just any number of things? Honestly, she was way more worried about it than I was. Once I decided that this was...I was like: "OK, you know what? I love this person, I care about her, I like our time together and I'm going to accept that there's some risk here. The risk seems manageable and small, but there's some risk and I'm OK with that risk so let's go forward." And it wasn't something that I thought about that much after that fact. I think during our time together she might have had one outbreak. So, over the course of a couple years, let's say three-ish years or so, there might have been one outbreak. It was a little bit inconclusive and we basically decided to hold off on doing anything during that time. Which it was fine. So from a day-to-day perspective, there was relatively little impact other than maybe discussions every once in a while if she's like: "Oh, I forgot to take my pill today. Let's hold off." It was really something that she worried about a lot more than I did. 

Courtney: Yeah. Thank you for that. So as someone who has tested negative for herpes and dated someone who has herpes, I'm curious to know--[sighs] I did it again. Yup [laughs]. I'm leaving it in there, this is my warning to do better [laughs]. 

Charles: [chuckles] We all have our quirks! And that's fine, I'm not going to judge.

Courtney: [laughs] My question originally was supposed to have been your concerns with getting herpes. So you said that initially you began using condoms and then you both made the decision to not use condoms and she just continued to be aware of her body and communicate anything that may have been a potential prodrome symptom where an outbreak might be coming. So I'm curious, were you ever concerned about getting herpes? And if so, were you prepared to navigate what that meant? 

Charles: Yeah, I had a little bit of concern. And that's part of the risk assessment. And really, a big part of safe informed sex practice is doing some level of risk assessment and deciding what level of risk you're comfortable with, whether it's from S T Ds or pregnancy or whatever, right? Because we're not talking about absolutes for any of this stuff. You can use multiple birth control methods and there's still some risk there. I already accept that in any sort of sexual relationship, or really almost anything fun in life. There's some level of risk that you need to decide what your comfort level is. Once I decided what my comfort level was, part of doing that was thinking through what it meant if I did get herpes from this relationship. That's really where understanding what it meant and the actual symptoms...I guess there are two aspects of it. There's the actual impact on my body and health and then there's the social interaction side of it. The impact of my body and health, in the grand scheme of things, seemed incredibly minor. Compared to a lot of other things, a herpes outbreak is, it seems like an annoyance rather than something that is life-threatening or going to have some significant impact on my ability to function. The much bigger thing was the potential social impact or dealing with the stigma. I looked at it like, I already thought I was a pretty good communicator about sex-related topics and things like that and I looked at this as like, OK, if I wind up getting herpes and then this relationship comes to an end, then I'm going to have to make disclosures like she did to be a responsible partner. But she already demonstrated a great way to do that. I knew that I would be capable of it. It wouldn't be fun, it's certainly easier to not have that sort of thing to disclose but I was willing. I thought about it for a while I was like, OK, you know what, I'm OK if that happens. I'm OK with having those discussions and I feel like I'm a pretty good person to have those discussions because I know I would approach it from a pretty good perspective. 

Courtney: Yeah, that's a good lead-in to my next question, which was has there ever been a point where, in the relationship, you assumed that you had it or she assumed that you had it?

Charles: No, I don't think so. I don't think we had anything that seemed like any real concern. I think that the one time she had anything she thought might have been an outbreak, she suggested I get tested three months from then. I decided to adjust my testing schedule to accommodate that a little bit but I wasn't concerned. And after those few months, it was still negative. But there was never any sort of real scare or anything like that. 

Courtney: OK. The relationship is over and you still have a friendship. Did herpes have anything to do with the end of the relationship or was there something just human about the end of the relationship, or the transition into friendship? 

Charles: Yeah, herpes had nothing to do with anything. We all know this has been a really tough time for everyone, with the pandemic and everything like that. And I was also going through a ton of transitions in my life and it was not a good time or place for our relationship. It felt like it was better for us to be friends at that time. But it had nothing to do with her H S V status. We're still friends. There have been times after the relationship was over that there were some sexual interactions [chuckles]. Yeah, so it had nothing to do with that. 

Courtney: OK. That's great, thank you. I'm wanting to know if--I'm just going to go ahead and for full transparency, I view anyone who is disclosed to or if someone shares their status with them as an ally, if you will. And I speak to allyship in a sense of now when you go on to date and you have potential partners and you'll have these kinds of conversations, you have an awareness after having, not only had a partner share their status with you but also to be in a relationship with someone who has a positive status, who you have had unprotected sex with who has a positive status. And I want to know if this relationship has changed how you'll move forward in your dating or relationship structures or how you have conversations around sex and sexual health communication with partners as you move forward. Did anything change because of this relationship? 

Charles: Yeah, I think it did. And to be fair it wasn't just because of this relationship. It's been a journey over my history of relationships. When I was more casually dating and meeting people, I went out with one or two people that disclosed pretty early on that they were H S V 2 positive. And we had some discussions about those. It wasn't really like those relationships didn't go anywhere or even get to the point that we were sexually intimate but I don't know, I don't think it was because of that. It just didn't go that far, but there was that disclosure upfront, which I greatly appreciated. And if they had progressed to that point, I don't know how I would have felt at that point in time because they were more casual. And then I had gone out with somebody not too far before my ex-girlfriend and we had gotten to the point of being intimate together and she had also disclosed that she was H S V 2 positive and I was like: "OK, I'm not sure." Because it was in the moment and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do there. And we talked about it and that was when I first kind of came to terms with wondering what the actual risk and consequences are and deciding if I was OK with that or not. And at that point in time, I was like: "OK you know what, here are all the pros, here's all the cons." And in that moment it seemed to make sense and we ended up having protected sex at that time. And we're still friends but that never turned into any sort of relationship but for me, I think that was a key stepping stone for me to transition to have the conversation I did with my ex-girlfriend and be more open to it because I already crossed that threshold for the first time. My approach to dating and these conversations and disclosures has evolved and matured over time and it certainly has evolved and matured because of this experience. Because now I feel like I can talk about it from a much more informed place where it's yes, like anybody else I have concerns about how do I have sexual relationships and be safe and protect my health but also while having fun and enjoying everything that's great about sex. But now I can go in and say hey, listen, I had this experience and it forced me to learn more about what the actual risk was, talking about consequences and being OK with that and realizing that H S V 2, without all the expectations of society around it, in a vacuum it's pretty minor. Yes, it's definitely changed and evolved my perspective and approach. 

Courtney: While dating her, or in the relationship with her, had stigma emerged at all in your relationship dynamic? 

Charles: Her history of dealing with it certainly did. I was lucky enough to be raised relatively shame-free when it came to anything sex-related or sexual topics or anything like that. I think that there was a struggle for her to deal with her history of stigma around this. And I don't know that it was--from everything that we talked about, because we talked a lot about each of our dating histories as time went on and I had a lot of questions for her about how it was for her dating with H S V 2, and I don't recall her ever talking about an experience where she was shut down or rejected specifically because of that or I don't know that she experienced some sort of direct significant stigma but she certainly acted and felt like she had. And she was very worried about it and felt

like she was really held back. Now, I don't know also how much of it is that she's really hot and cool and fun and like [chuckles] so that helps out the equation a little bit but where the stigma came into play is her own thoughts about herself. And that affected some of her behavior and we talked about that a lot. And it'd be like: "Hey, I'm not judging you the way that you think that I'm judging you. Or, the things that you're worried about, those are not even things that I'm thinking about." If that makes sense. 

Courtney: Yeah, so that's how you supported her as stigma emerged for her. You just assured her that this isn't a problem for you and that yeah, you're hot, you're fun, so I don't care about the herpes stigma. Is that kind of what you were able to offer her when those moments came up? 

Charles: Yeah, exactly. And the other thing was really just making sure that she knew that the lines of communication were always open. And that if she's having any of those doubts or concerns that she shouldn't be shy about sharing them, that I wasn't going to judge her or those things. Like, bring them up! If you need--especially when we were going through the Covid times, we were talking about this concept of love tanks. Like, your love tank being like a gasoline tank and how full is it and what are the things that you need to refill your tank and how all of us need different things, looking at love languages or whatever. Sometimes it's that you need some reassurance, right? You're not feeling confident about something and that was something that came up for her. If she was feeling worried or not confident or apprehensive or whatever, that it's OK to say that and explicitly, or implicitly, ask for reassurance. There's nothing wrong with wanting or needing attention or reassurance. Like if you're in a relationship and it's a problem that you need attention or reassurance, that's a pretty serious relationship problem in my opinion. That should be something that you get from a relationship, any sort of healthy relationship. 

Courtney: Yeah! Thanks for speaking to that. Because we will [chuckles] go out and seek things outside of where we should feel safe getting them. Whether that be in our communities, our friendships, our relationships, our careers, our passions, hobbies, interests, all of those things can influence how we show up to fill our love tank. If we're constantly going out and getting or seeking things that we should be getting in places that we feel safe, you know, how safe is that place that we're in? And that's a whole different topic of conversation. You sort of spoke to something that I'm recognizing to be a theme and there's no real politically correct way of saying this but I think that attractiveness does in fact play a role. Like how attracted you are to someone--not necessarily if they're attractive or not--but whether or not you're attracted to someone, that does play a role in how much further you go with this person. I don't know how much, I can't really speak to that, but in all of the conversations, what I'm hearing consistently is that the person who was negative for H S V moved forward with was someone that they were attracted to and they were attracted physically as well as other things. You mentioned that she's hot and that she's fun. And I'm sure there are other aspects of her being that you were drawn to as well. If this were someone that you may have seen incompatibilities with or they weren't someone who expressed some of the values or characteristics that you're typically drawn to, would it have even gotten to the point of her having to disclose her herpes status to you? And if it did get to that point, would incompatibilities have been something that kept you from moving forward with her? 

Charles: That's a good question. And I think it's--I doubt that it's specific to me, but I know that just in dating in particular, attractiveness...it's a complicated equation where if I'm more interested in somebody for whatever reason that is whether I'm really physically attracted to them or there's some other way that we're connecting that makes me more willing to overlook other inconveniences. I think that's probably true for everybody, where it's like normally I hate commuting but there have been times where I've dated people that lived 45 minutes away from me because I was really into them for other reasons. Whereas, if I wasn't into them for those reasons, I would be like: "Nah, 45 minutes, that's too far." For me, herpes disclosure is basically the same sort of thing. It's an inconvenience that factors into the whole thing. It's a pretty small one for me at this point in time. I think now that I've had some pretty significant long-term, positive experiences in understanding that. I guess at this point in time, it would be a non-factor for me because of the experiences that I've had. But before I had gone out with her, it probably would have been a small factor for me. Where it might have been a small factor for me, I doubt it would have been a deciding factor. What I care about is that my partner's informed and that they're taking steps to control it. And if they are, then I'm fine with that. I read something a long time ago that I think someone had said that their appraisal was that it was lower risk to have sex with somebody who has H S V 2 and is aware of their status than having sex with somebody who is unaware of their status. And at least from my limited experience, I agree with that. Because if you're informed and you know and you're taking the steps to both take care of yourself and protect your partner then that, to me, that puts me at ease a lot more. I don't know if that answers your question, but yeah, it's a very very small to non-existent factor at this point in time for me.

Courtney: Perfect. That was perfect. [chuckles] I couldn't have asked for a better response, because you speak to it as an inconvenience just like commuting would be. And that's something I want people to sit with. Because there are compatibilities and incompatibilities and you just know yourself. I had a partner reject me because she didn't want to take the precautions and she was like: "I'm a very sexual person, I know that I'm not going to want to always wear condoms in order to keep myself from contracting herpes. I'm not always going to be someone who wants to take any additional precautions." She may just want to see me and be able to jump on my dick without having to stop and put on a condom or check-in about outbreaks. And this was a conversation that we had! And I have to respect that. Everyone has their limitations, their boundaries, their rules, their values, things that are important to them and so for some people it commuting, and the way that we look at a person's rejection of wanting to move forward sexually after sharing a positive herpes status with them, it shouldn't be any different than: "Oh, I don't like commuting. Oh, I want kids and you don't. I fall under this religion and you don't. I am on this side of the political spectrum. I want to travel the world and you want to live in Des Moines, Iowa." There are all of these different factors that we just completely overlook that make us significantly more incompatible or not a fit for one another than just someone's herpes diagnosis. If you're someone who lives a mile away from a potential partner and you're attracted to them, all of the compatibilities seem there and they just have herpes, I hope that you were able to listen to this podcast episode. Listen to this series and take into consideration where your values are. What is more important to you? And why is dating someone who has herpes so much more important to you...like, if that's the dealbreaker, the fact that someone has herpes, I want to reword what I said, I'm sorry. Why is it that someone having herpes is the dealbreaker whereas they are close, maybe in the grand scheme of compatibilities and incompatibilities that may carry more weight than other things? It's like you said, there may be a little bit of leeway for someone that you like more, that you're more attracted to, that you see more of a long-term future with or you're more compatible with. But we shouldn't allow something like herpes, that's so misrepresented in media...the information that's out there is inconsistent and really all we have to draw from for experience and information are the lived experiences of people who have navigated herpes stigma themselves. I'm going to hop off my soapbox and I'm going to ask you another question here and that's-- 

Charles: Let me chime in one little bit on that point, if you don't mind.

Courtney: Mmm-hmm! 

Charles: The thing for me, also--I've had a fair amount of dating experience and online dating. To me, this is--there are potentially those who would benefit, for someone who's H S V 2 positive. It's kind of like a litmus test for judging somebody's maturity around sex and their attitude toward sex where it's...and I bring this up because I talk with a lot of my friends about their dating experience and most of my friends are women. And a common theme is something coming up early on that they're disappointed about and finding out about their partner and struggling with understanding that it's actually good that you found that out early because that just saved you a bunch of problems down the road. And I feel like it's probably similar with giving an H S V 2 disclosure. If somebody can't handle that or that is a dealbreaker, then you're probably dodging a bullet. Because in what other ways are they not going to be mature or evolved about this? The empathy that I feel for someone who's [inaudible] but who has an H S V 2 disclosure, it sucks but you're kind of forced to mature and evolve your own attitude toward sexuality because it's like: "OK, well now I have to be a responsible person. I need to understand this and I need to be able to talk about it." And it sucks to be forced into that situation and I'm sorry about that, but there's a benefit there, from my perspective at least. 

Courtney: Thank you for that. Do you have any guidance, advice...if someone who just was disclosed to by someone who has genital herpes and they find this podcast episode because they're on the fence about whether or not to move forward with that person or they are still a little bit uncomfortable with the idea of potentially getting herpes, what guidance, what advice do you have for someone who's in that place right now? 

Charles: That's a good question. First off, I think that you should understand what you're actually talking about. Learn about what it means to be H S V 2 positive. Learn what you're actually talking about, what's going to be the impact if you get H S V 2 from this person, and understand what that is. When I say understand it, like really understand the actual physiological impact, rather than the stigma side of it. Think about how serious or not serious or whatever. And the second part of it is about the stigma side of it and how that might affect you but how it's been affecting your partner and think about also what role you want to play in that whole scheme. Part of it for me was...that it feels like she was in a very unfair situation. Like, it sucks. When something comes up you're in this situation and it's not because she was "careless" or anything like that, right? So now she's dealing with being H S V 2 positive and that felt very unfair to me and I didn't want to be somebody that was perpetuating that unfairness. I would also suggest figuring out what's a staggard or graduating or evolving approach to trying things out and being safe with them. If you're into somebody and they disclose this to you and you're not totally comfortable, that you do very low-risk sexual things with them and see how the relationship progresses and then in an informed fashion slowly increase the risk. That's what we did. It was probably in a lot bigger chunks and somewhat fast escalation but as I was comfortable with one thing then I was more comfortable considering the next thing. I think that would be my advice. Get informed about it and then think about is there a way to slowly scale up what risk you're comfortable with. 

Courtney: DAMN, everybody should be able to have a conversation like this. A free-flowing dialogue exchange between someone who does have herpes and someone who does not have herpes. And I speak to herpes exclusively on this podcast because that's what brings people here, but this is metaphorically interchangeable with just about anything. So, a conversation about what you want, about who you are, about characteristics, values that are important to you. We should be able to speak to these things in an open dialogue way with one another. So it doesn't matter where the differences are or where we in our heads may think, "Oh, if I share this piece of vulnerable information about myself to this other person, they're going to run for the hills." Just like our guest said if they run for the hills, good riddance. It's a litmus test. Are you someone who is going to be around when that becomes an issue or are you going to run away? I would much rather know that now as I disclose this vulnerable piece of information to you when the investment is a little bit lower than years down the line when we have a family together and we share a bank account and then all of a sudden a limb breaks and I have to be cared for in a wheelchair for a while or, god forbid, if one of the partners gets sick and then the other person just can't handle that. You want to know right away if this is someone worth investing in the future with or investing your time and energy into now so that you don't look back and go, "Damn, I just wasted this many months or years of my life with someone that I'm not even compatible with or that I can't even be myself around." Because we also do this thing, I'm noticing, where we meet, match, swipe on each other or whatever and we're getting the best of other people presented in the way that they want to be seen. We're presenting ourselves at our best, in the way that we want to be seen. So, how about putting ourselves in the position to be seen as we are and through some shared moment of vulnerability such as a herpes diagnosis with a potential partner. That is a great way of demonstrating vulnerability and I invite everyone to consider, even if it's not herpes, maybe it's something else, maybe it's a mental health status shift, maybe it's something in relation to finances or an insecurity in general. We should be able to offer that and use that as a way of determining how the other person would respond to something similar such as a positive herpes diagnosis. All right, my man, is there--oh, go ahead! I was just about to ask if there was anything you wanted to add. 

Charles: Yeah, I wanted to chime in for one other thing when you were asking for advice for somebody who's negative and considering this. I think the last thing that I would say is don't be an asshole about it, hopefully that's OK. If you decide that it's not something that you're comfortable with, that's on you, that's not them. It's not a very difficult thing to manage the risk and be safe about it and if that's something that you're not up for, that's not a judgment on you, but that's a “you” thing, that's not a “them” thing. Meaning the person who's negative. So anyway, don't be an asshole. 

Courtney: [chuckles] All right, is there anything else you want to leave us with? I'm going to go ahead and close this out and then I can let you go and we'll touch base when this podcast episode's going to be released. 

Charles: I think that's everything. I just want to say I love the work you're doing, I think it's a really positive, good message so keep on doing it! And, yeah! Way to go! 

Courtney: [chuckles] Thank you for being a part of this! That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please like, rate, review, share, subscribe to this podcast. As far as the non-profit goes, remember we are a 501c3 non-profit organization. You can check out the website W W W dot S P F P P dot org. You can see options to donate, you can join our Patreon page to subscribe if you want to make monthly donations to support our continued efforts to getting people connected to the support resources they need, as well as the advocacy and creation of an inspiration of allyship in this space. You see the series on the Discordant Dating relationships at this point. This is one of the--I think I'll be done [chuckles]. This will be up in April for sure and right now it's January 20 so I've been putting in a ton of work to get this lined up to where I can focus on trying to bring some money in so that we can get back into offering therapy resources. All the donations are helping and supportive of continuing that mission. The mission that is much more clearly highlighted on the website at the time of this podcast release I'm sure, because I've revamped the Board. Our board meeting is January 26 and I will have inducted new people already and yeah, the mission is continuing. We serve people who are living with herpes in support of them being able to navigate stigma and that's what we do, that's what we have been doing. Our advocacy extends into the space of people who also date people with herpes, who might be exposed to herpes, who might work in the field, and into the field of S T D prevention and mental health. Sexual health is mental health and you hear it throughout this podcast, we highlight the interconnectedness of the two and we bring on the lived experiences of people who navigate that thin line if you will. Thank you for being here, thank you for continuing to support this. Til next time, stay sex-positive.